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Changing the effects of the damage doublers
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:32 am    Post subject: Changing the effects of the damage doublers Reply with quote

As Jacob discovered here, and as I've found in the past, damage doubling effects in Savage Worlds are *really* nasty. Because you don't have to dig through the target's Toughness and Armor again, doubling the result on the damage roll almost always does *way more* than doubling the actual effectiveness of the hit. The effect is amplified even more, the tougher a target is - a 1-Wound hit on a Toughness 16 Dragon suddenly turns into a *6*-Wound hit with the application of a single doubling effect.

So, I have a proposal. For damage doublers - the Solomon Kane artifact sword, the Wild Card Edges, the Deadly Blow Adventure Deck card, etc - instead of doubling damage, you increase the effectiveness of the hit by one level.

"no result" from your damage roll being below Toughness becomes Shaken
Shaken becomes 1 Wound
1 Wound becomes 2 Wounds
2 Wounds becomes 3 Wounds
etc, etc, etc.

With the exception of the first result, it's effectively a +4 damage, but I don't know anyone who'll turn down a guaranteed free +4 damage, and the versatility of the GUARANTEED Shaken result, I think, more than makes up for the fact that you're no longer one-shotting the Dragon.

This makes those effects significantly weaker in terms of automatic kills against extremely tough targets (which is a good thing) while leaving them effective (which is a good thing) and adding an extra capability that's extremely useful when it comes up without being broken (which is a good thing)

What do you think?
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alternate thought:

Change the doublers as follows. Calculate all results of the hit normally, and, immediately before applying them, double the *outcome*.

Non-shaken stays useless.
Shaken becomes Shaken x2 - almost certainly a Wound.
1 Wound becomes 2
2 wounds becomes 4
3 wounds becomes 6.

I like this less, but it leaves the powers *closer* to the original without making them quite as strong.
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Savage Yinn
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuesday wrote:
Alternate thought:

Change the doublers as follows. Calculate all results of the hit normally, and, immediately before applying them, double the *outcome*.

Non-shaken stays useless.
Shaken becomes Shaken x2 - almost certainly a Wound.
1 Wound becomes 2
2 wounds becomes 4
3 wounds becomes 6.

I like this less, but it leaves the powers *closer* to the original without making them quite as strong.


If I was voting I'd pick this option.

This is still very powerful, but not as powerful as doubling the damage rolled. I for one have a player who rolls over 40 damage at least once per session, 40 is extreme enough; 80 would be shocking, I don't think there are enough bennies in the world to soak 80 damage.

I'm also thinking of limiting wounds done to 3 or maybe 4.
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jamused
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about just doubling one of the dice involved; e.g. for the Solomon Kane sword, the sword's die but not any Strength die, die for a raise on the hit, etc. On average you'd be looking at 1 more level of effect, but with a good roll it could be 3 or 4.

Though for Mighty Blow I'd be inclined to leave it as is...if you're going to spend an Edge on something that only happens if you're dealt the Joker, you should get something pretty spectacular.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: Changing the effects of the damage doublers Reply with quote

Tuesday wrote:
With the exception of the first result, it's effectively a +4 damage, but I don't know anyone who'll turn down a guaranteed free +4 damage, and the versatility of the GUARANTEED Shaken result, I think, more than makes up for the fact that you're no longer one-shotting the Dragon.


Well, "guaranteed" if you get the Joker during initiative and are in position to perform the specified kind of attack. Or "guaranteed" if you get the correct Adventure Deck card, the opportunity arises to use it, and if you got more than one card, you didn't use another for something else this session.

And this is a doubling on a roll that can't be rerolled with a benny without another Edge. Might not affect the Adventure Deck (which is optional in and of itself), but certainly would affect the Wild Card Edges.

And as far as the Adventure Deck goes, if altering the doubling cards, are the damage negation cards going to be changed as well? The cards that allow all damage (regardless of the result) to be ignored or even applied to someone adjacent to you (how nice when the dragon one-shots you with a claw and ends up disemboweling itself instead).

Those are the kind of things the Adventure Deck can do, and that's why players get to use only one per session.

I guess I just think it's a bit much. Is it really powerful? Certainly, but it's also really limited in exchange. To limit it further seems excessive to the point of not really making them worthwhile.

That's another thing to consider. How is the player going to feel when they finally draw the Joker and their Edge kicks in and the GM says, "Well, you rolled enough to Shake the dragon, which doubles/+4 is a wound, and <rolls dice> the dragon Soaks it. Who's next?" Or when they consider that their one Adventure Deck card they can spend this session is typically going to be worth doing one additional wound on one damage roll if they roll higher than they would have needed otherwise.

It's not much fun to see an already limited ability get negated or a one-time use ability that is less than impressive.

Plus, as mentioned in the other thread, the odds of one-shotting a Wild Card are much less with the Incapacitation rules from SWEX. It doesn't matter how many wounds are done in one hit when the target can use their bennies on the Incapacitation table.

Anyway, just wanted to point out it's not just a factor of the effect but the occurence.
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamused:

Thing is, Mighty Blow can be used with Frenzy or Sweep, and also comes more often with Quick or Level-headed. While it only shows up rarely, Mighty Blow on a Sweeping character means that, when he gets a Joker, *everything* in his reach dies immediately. Especially since you're not just doubling damage, you're adding two and then doubling - a guaranteed extra Wound *above and beyond* just doubling the dice.

Dead Shot is even worse, since Shooting-specialised characters tend to have the spare Attributes to hit a d8 Smarts and buy Improved Level Headed, and their range lets them pick which target they want to kill. At that point, the Joker comes up 11% of the time, and between the +2 to hit and the standard bonuses that most shooters have (Marksman, Trademark weapon, etc), they pick the target of their choice and make it disappear - again, with the guaranteed extra Wound above and beyond just doubling the dice.

The real problem, to me, isn't the cost of the Edge. It's the effect of it. I don't care if it's only a 1/26 chance of killing a target instantly - it's that there's a 4% chance of something really quite *boring* happening, for every character with this power, every round, against The Big Bad(tm).

Savage Yinn:
Quote:
I don't think there are enough bennies in the world to soak 80 damage.

I'm also thinking of limiting wounds done to 3 or maybe 4.


Well, if you take 80 damage, don't soak it at all. Let it through, take the hit, and spend the Bennies on the Incapacitation Roll, looking for the 8 that leaves you up and Shaken with 3 Wounds.

(Limiting Wounds: if you're going that route, I'd say limit it to 5. That way, a wimpy guy isn't looking for just a mere 4 on his roll to stay up the way he is if the limit is 4, but a tough opponent can still reasonably get the 8 he needs to stay up if he started the turn healthy.)
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint:

I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of the Adventure Deck. There's just too many things in there that break the system or break the feel of the game, for my taste. Obviously, mileages do vary.

Quote:
Well, "guaranteed" if you get the Joker during initiative and are in position to perform the specified kind of attack.


My experience with Dead Shot has been that the ranged attacker can *always* get a shot off on something important, and with Mighty Blow he *might* not be able to kill the big bad guy, but he can absolutely annihilate anything in reach, often *everything* in reach. Especially since, in both cases, they can move whenever they want without fear of interruption *and* they get a free +2, meaning they can run and still attack with no penalty.

Quote:
I guess I just think it's a bit much. Is it really powerful? Certainly, but it's also really limited in exchange. To limit it further seems excessive to the point of not really making them worthwhile.


Whereas the problem I have is that the results are so strong that they're not fun, and at that point it doesn't really matter how rare they are - if it's a 1% chance, then one in a hundred times something that is really going to be un-fun is going to happen.

Quote:
That's another thing to consider. How is the player going to feel when they finally draw the Joker and their Edge kicks in and the GM says, "Well, you rolled enough to Shake the dragon, which doubles/+4 is a wound, and <rolls dice> the dragon Soaks it. Who's next?


Most people who buy the Wild Card Edges also build to get extra init cards - Improved Level-Headed means that Joker pops up more than 10% of the time, for you alone, ignoring everyone else. Have more than one person with Quick or Level-Headed, and the odds of at least one PC getting a joker in a round start getting really quite good.

Meaning, basically, that in my experience the joker shows up enough to make the Wild Card Edges useful, even if you downgrade them to "only" a free Shaken or a free Wound.

(and, making the dragon spend a Benny and roll to soak is a neat trick, generally - it's the kind of thing you really do want it doing. Your attack made it do that rather than just ignoring you and unshaking with it's Spirit D12 and Combat Reflexes? Sweet!)

Quote:
Plus, as mentioned in the other thread, the odds of one-shotting a Wild Card are much less with the Incapacitation rules from SWEX. It doesn't matter how many wounds are done in one hit when the target can use their bennies on the Incapacitation table.


Yeah, sure - and while staying up after a 90-Wound hit is a really good trick, don't get me wrong, that's still staying up with a -3 Wound penalty to everything you do *and* being Shaken *and* having every single Wound past this point send you right back to either spending a Benny to soak or to the Incap table and hoping for an 11 again.

Staying up is *much better than nothing*, but it's not *good*, and I don't feel it's a fair balance compared to the ability to automatically put someone into that situation.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuesday wrote:
buy Improved Level Headed, ... At that point, the Joker comes up 11% of the time,

I don't know where you got that 11% figure from, or what exactly "the Joker comes up" is supposed to mean.


I my experience, the "draw multiple cards" Edges have very little effect on the chnace of a character being dealt a Joker.

Yes, if multiple characters in a fight have such Edges Jokers will be dealt more often, simply because you run through the deck faster.

But there's no way to improve the chance that a Joker is actually dealt to you. You might just as well be wering down the deck and find the Joker pop up in the GM's hands.


IMO, the Wild Card Edges and the Deadly Blow Adventure Card don't need any change at all. Their effect is rare enough to be extremely powerful.

And as far as the Katane from SK is concerned, I don't like the effects of most of the SK relics in general. If I ever were to run an SK campaign, I'd probably make up my own set of relics anyways...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack, if you get to draw three cards, your odds of getting the Joker just tripled.


Tuesday, well, if you really can't stand the thought of a Wild Card with three or so edges invested in it can sometimes annihilate a foe, then you should probably just house-rule out edges that double your damage instead of nerfing them. At least, as a player I'd much rather you told me straight out that you weren't going to allow X,Y or Z in your setting because it didn't match the feel you're going for.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuesday wrote:
I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of the Adventure Deck. There's just too many things in there that break the system or break the feel of the game, for my taste. Obviously, mileages do vary.


That's cool, then that's pretty much a moot point as far as this discussion goes then.

Tuesday wrote:
My experience with Dead Shot has been that the ranged attacker can *always* get a shot off on something important, and with Mighty Blow he *might* not be able to kill the big bad guy, but he can absolutely annihilate anything in reach, often *everything* in reach. Especially since, in both cases, they can move whenever they want without fear of interruption *and* they get a free +2, meaning they can run and still attack with no penalty.


Yep, with no penalty... which means without the +2 bonus, and switching from perhaps a guaranteed to hit to potential miss (a 1 in 8 chance for a d12 against TN: 4, ignoring hitting Parry for a Fighting roll).

So the player spends a benny to reroll if he misses... so now his Edge has cost him waiting for the Joker and a benny.

There is always a trade-off or a cost.

Tuesday wrote:
Whereas the problem I have is that the results are so strong that they're not fun, and at that point it doesn't really matter how rare they are - if it's a 1% chance, then one in a hundred times something that is really going to be un-fun is going to happen.


But... that's pretty much in the system without that. Confused

Any damage roll can ace and provide the exact same effect. A character rolling 2d10 damage has a 23% chance of doing 16 points of damage or more, and 10% of that time, 2.37%, they will actually roll 28 points of damage (or more), nearly doubling the initial roll and doing 3+ more wounds.


Tuesday wrote:
Most people who buy the Wild Card Edges also build to get extra init cards - Improved Level-Headed means that Joker pops up more than 10% of the time, for you alone, ignoring everyone else. Have more than one person with Quick or Level-Headed, and the odds of at least one PC getting a joker in a round start getting really quite good.


So does every PC have these Edges? Because if not, it does no good to the PC who does have it if someone else draws the Joker.

That's the telling issue with those odds; it's fine if dealing three cards from a fresh deck to one character. Other than that, it doesn't really work. In fact, all those other PCs (not to mention NPCs) with Quick or Improved Level Headed are reducing the chance of the individual PC of getting a Joker by increasing the chances they get it instead.

Tuesday wrote:
Meaning, basically, that in my experience the joker shows up enough to make the Wild Card Edges useful, even if you downgrade them to "only" a free Shaken or a free Wound.


Perhaps, but the fact that the player had to spend 3 Edges and make sure he had a d8 Smarts to get this "10%" chance that they might do an extra wound if they roll pretty well to begin with just feels a bit excessive to me.

I think I'd rather buy No Mercy and Great Luck. The extra bennies will be useful for more than combat and I don't need a Smarts of d8+ or a combat skill at d10+ (not to mention working on any kind of attack whether melee or ranged).

Tuesday wrote:
(and, making the dragon spend a Benny and roll to soak is a neat trick, generally - it's the kind of thing you really do want it doing. Your attack made it do that rather than just ignoring you and unshaking with it's Spirit D12 and Combat Reflexes? Sweet!)


Dragons have a Spirit of d10 and no Combat Reflexes. Making the dragon Soak one wound can actually be beneficial to the dragon. It gets to use its d12 Vigor to roll and only needs a normal success to get rid of the wound and the Shaken status.

If the dragon actually had to roll to unshake, there's a 15% chance of failure and a 60% chance of at least losing its action while recovering.

Tuesday wrote:
Yeah, sure - and while staying up after a 90-Wound hit is a really good trick, don't get me wrong, that's still staying up with a -3 Wound penalty to everything you do *and* being Shaken *and* having every single Wound past this point send you right back to either spending a Benny to soak or to the Incap table and hoping for an 11 again.

Staying up is *much better than nothing*, but it's not *good*, and I don't feel it's a fair balance compared to the ability to automatically put someone into that situation.


Sorry, I suppose I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with references like "automatically" and "guaranteed." I can understand that the times it has happened are more memorable than the times it hasn't, but there's really no way it unavoidably happens.

You've already said it's what, an 11% chance to begin with, not counting every other card dealt at the table, and only if the character has taken both Level Headed and Improved Level Headed. And then the player gets +2 damage for the Joker on top of his roll, that can then be doubled, and to reach the point of "automatically" putting an NPC Wild Card in "that situation," meaning doing 6+ wounds in one shot (5 wounds is easier to Soak to 3 wounds and not Incapacitated than rolling on the Incapacitation table).

Heck, lets say, they just need to roll the 4 wounds to cause Incapacitation in the first place. That's 16 points above the target's Toughness.

This time we won't even go with the uber-tough dragon; let's use a Toughness 12 BBG. We need a 28 to get to that situation, halved for the doubling effect is a 14 and -2 for the bonus for the Joker means the player has to roll a 12 on his damage for that to occur.

2d8 is a pretty good damage for a character, but let's go on to a full 2d10 damage. The player has a 47% chance of doing enough damage to cause that effect... the theoretical 11% of the time it might come up.

So this "automatic" "guaranteed" thing in this case has a 95% chance of not happening. And even if only counting the times the character does draw the right card from the deck, there's still a 53% chance of it not occuring as well.

This is a 2d10 damage roll versus an opponent with 8 points less Toughness than a dragon figuring only the chance to get 4+ wounds not the 6+ wounds where it becomes more advantageous to use the Incapacitation table.

And I'll add one more variable to the overall mix. I think most players who might consider this "un-fun" would only say so if it happened in the very beginning of the combat. If combat has gone on for a few rounds or more, then a player pulling a Joker, making an awesome damage roll, and killing the BBG is pretty much the cool ending talked about for years.

So I don't think the idea of a player ever doing this is automatically "boring." Situations also exist where it can be awesome. It may be worth keeping in mind that removing one can also remove the other, and generally the "awesome" occasions are remembered more clearly than rare "boring" ones.

Still, if even a 1% or less chance of this happening in the game is too much, then consider changing it. Just keep in mind the overall usefulness of these Edges and whether a player would take them after reducing their effects, the impact when a major damage roll in the game would actually be cool, and the fact that the basic system is capable of generating the same damage totals without Edges that only take effect when a Joker is drawn by the player in question.

A suggestion I might make would be to consider doubling the damage dice when the effect occurs instead of the damage total. That way the entire result is randomized and acing one die isn't effectively acing two dice; plus flat bonuses (like from the Joker) are still the same flat bonus. And seriously, what player doesn't like dropping a handful of dice now and then. Wink
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Jordan Peacock
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuesday wrote:
I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of the Adventure Deck. There's just too many things in there that break the system or break the feel of the game, for my taste. Obviously, mileages do vary.


The Adventure Deck only works, in my opinion, for game settings in which you don't mind players metagaming their way to victory (in a manner of speaking). In my experience, it worked fine for the Pirates RPG I was running, because the players were freely exploring and taking on enemies, and it didn't really matter in the big scheme of things whether a battle against a man o' war was an epic engagement, or whether someone pulled off a ridiculous stunt that one-shotted it. (For one thing, sinking a ship in Pirates RPG means - congrats! - you aren't going to be taking that ship back as a prize after all.)

It doesn't quite work as well for "plot point" campaigns where the GM has a very specific direction he wants to take the story. While cards of the "Bang! You're Dead!" variety might be fairly rare, the AD gives players plenty of ways to throw monkey wrenches into a carefully balanced encounter.

In "pulpy" or "campy" games, it might be fine: If the PCs took this bad guy down "too easily," there will always be more. On the other hand, I really wouldn't recommend Adventure Cards for a horror game. (I've actually had some ideas for "Plot Twist Cards" that might be interesting for a horror game, but they still play with the genre, and make things a bit campy ... and that's a big tangent.)

Quote:
(and, making the dragon spend a Benny and roll to soak is a neat trick, generally - it's the kind of thing you really do want it doing. Your attack made it do that rather than just ignoring you and unshaking with it's Spirit D12 and Combat Reflexes? Sweet!)


Yeah, I've observed that "he soaked it" can be seen in different ways. Some of it really depends upon whether a player is a "glass half full" or "glass half empty" kind of guy. The "half-empties" can be really frustrating, no matter how it's handled. However, if the players can see ahead of time that I've got a stack of three bennies at hand, then if I'm having to spend bennies - usually they can pick up that, hey, that's progress. Those bennies would have had to be eaten away before the bad guy could be finally defeated anyway.

On the other hand, if the GM was just mentally tallying bennies in his head, or if the benny stack is behind a GM screen, there isn't that confirmation of progress being made. For all the players know, he might have just hand-waved it and declared bennies for an NPC who, 10 seconds ago, didn't have any. In that case, "oh, he soaked it" is going to seem lame.
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Flynn
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I tend to translate "double damage" as an additional +1d6 damage, as that averages out to an extra wound. It's not quite as powerful, but it works well in my home campaign.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flynn wrote:
Personally, I tend to translate "double damage" as an additional +1d6 damage, as that averages out to an extra wound. It's not quite as powerful, but it works well in my home campaign.

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I haven't run into it yet myself, but I'm inclined to agree with Flynn.

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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint:

Quote:
If the dragon actually had to roll to unshake, there's a 15% chance of failure and a 60% chance of at least losing its action while recovering.


And, if it fails to recover or wants to act anyway, then it still has the option of spending the benny, even after rolling and failing, even after rolling *and succeeding*.

By Wounding it, you've forced it to spend the benny *for sure*, and you've forced it to spend it right there.

Wounding is always better than Shaking, even if the target soaks and recovers on the spot. Any time leaving them Shaken would be an advantage, they can instantly spend the Benny (that they saved by not Soaking) to become un-Shaken, and they might un-Shake for free when their card comes up.

Quote:
So this "automatic" "guaranteed" thing in this case has a 95% chance of not happening.


And one in every twenty times, an average roll from a strong character against an extremely tough opponent will suddenly turn from "dangerous" to "deadly" on the spot.

And you're right about how this only really matters if it happens at the start of the fight - but if it's happening at the end of the fight, *you probably didn't need the doubler* to put the target down. At the start or in the middle, it's by definition anticlimatic.

Jamused:
Quote:
Tuesday, well, if you really can't stand the thought of a Wild Card with three or so edges invested in it can sometimes annihilate a foe,


One Edge. The others just make it more likely to show up, they don't make it any stronger when it does.

Quote:
then you should probably just house-rule out edges that double your damage instead of nerfing them. At least, as a player I'd much rather you told me straight out that you weren't going to allow X,Y or Z in your setting because it didn't match the feel you're going for.


I wouldn't change the rules on the Edge after you bought it - not without giving you a chance to retool and swap, if you want to.

I like the idea of the Wild Card Edges. I just don't like the outcome of their use, in actual play, quite so much. Jacob's situation of 3d10 damage and then *two* doublers was, of course, simply icing on the cake.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuesday wrote:

Quote:
So this "automatic" "guaranteed" thing in this case has a 95% chance of not happening.


And one in every twenty times, an average roll from a strong character against an extremely tough opponent will suddenly turn from "dangerous" to "deadly" on the spot.

And you're right about how this only really matters if it happens at the start of the fight - but if it's happening at the end of the fight, *you probably didn't need the doubler* to put the target down. At the start or in the middle, it's by definition anticlimatic.


Actually, it could never happen in the middle of the fight - once it happens, the fight is over. It could be that the it is both the beginning and the end at the same time, but never in the middle.

I have to wonder, though, who is it anti-climatic for? The players? I have never had a player get disappointed or think a fight is boring, even if they took the big bad down after the first shot. My entire group thinks that's the coolest. It isn't as much fun for me, but then, I'm the GM and am trying to make it fun for the players. The good news is, that type of thing tends to make characters over-confident, so the next time, they are surprised.

Now, the game is supposed to be fun for everyone, myself included, but I enjoy seeing them win the day in a big way, so I don't mind it so much.

Do I see a problem with the Edges as written? Nope. I have characters who take them and it hasn't been a problem. Perhaps they just stink at rolling (Blue Sun can comment on that), but in my games, it hasn't been an issue. At least no more than the lucky acing die roll has been either, but I'm not going to change that rule, so I might as well keep the existing Edges working the way they do.

Apparently, it does cause a lot of concern for you (and your group?), so I would probably recommend the suggestion of doubling the dice and let it go at that. Sure, 4d6 (5d6 if they got a raise) can still deal massive damage, but it won't typically be to the extreme you seem to experience a lot, and still allows the player to joy in scoring big.

Just my thoughts.

Rich
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jamused
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuesday wrote:

Jamused:
Quote:
Tuesday, well, if you really can't stand the thought of a Wild Card with three or so edges invested in it can sometimes annihilate a foe,


One Edge. The others just make it more likely to show up, they don't make it any stronger when it does.


You were the one who brought up what if they have Sweep or Frenzy or Improved Level-headed.

My take on it is still if it only comes up when you pull a Joker, it had better be pretty darn good. Neither of your proposed alternatives strike me as being worth spending an Edge on.
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Tuesday
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Actually, it could never happen in the middle of the fight - once it happens, the fight is over. It could be that the it is both the beginning and the end at the same time, but never in the middle.


I think you've missed what I mean.

The problem I have with the doublers, be it that sword or Dead Shot or the Deadly Blow Adventure Card, is that they're fight-enders. When they come up, the target goes down hard and doesn't get back up.

Quote:
I have to wonder, though, who is it anti-climatic for? The players? I have never had a player get disappointed or think a fight is boring, even if they took the big bad down after the first shot.


I have. And, for me personally, player or GM, I find the "easy" one-hit kill to be anticlimatic. Even if a target survives with 3 Wounds or goes to the Incap table and comes back out, that's still not pretty.

Quote:
Apparently, it does cause a lot of concern for you (and your group?), so I would probably recommend the suggestion of doubling the dice and let it go at that. Sure, 4d6 (5d6 if they got a raise) can still deal massive damage, but it won't typically be to the extreme you seem to experience a lot, and still allows the player to joy in scoring big.


It's not a bad suggestion. 4d10+1d6+2 is, however, going to average less, but still be a *huge* hit.

jamused:
Quote:
My take on it is still if it only comes up when you pull a Joker, it had better be pretty darn good. Neither of your proposed alternatives strike me as being worth spending an Edge on.


Fair enough!
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Artking3
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Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering if Mighty Blow and Dead Shot were changed to Combat Edges instead of Wild Card Edges, would it be better?

Instead of Double Damage on a Joker, additional +2 to damage on a Fighting/Shooting/Throwing raise, in addition to the normal +1d6 damage from a raise.

What does everyone think of this change? I think the edges will get used more without being fight-enders as they are now.
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zeth
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Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 591

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artking3 wrote:
I was wondering if Mighty Blow and Dead Shot were changed to Combat Edges instead of Wild Card Edges, would it be better?

Instead of Double Damage on a Joker, additional +2 to damage on a Fighting/Shooting/Throwing raise, in addition to the normal +1d6 damage from a raise.

What does everyone think of this change? I think the edges will get used more without being fight-enders as they are now.


But they are supposed to be fight enders.
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Artking3
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Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeth wrote:
Artking3 wrote:
I was wondering if Mighty Blow and Dead Shot were changed to Combat Edges instead of Wild Card Edges, would it be better?

Instead of Double Damage on a Joker, additional +2 to damage on a Fighting/Shooting/Throwing raise, in addition to the normal +1d6 damage from a raise.

What does everyone think of this change? I think the edges will get used more without being fight-enders as they are now.


But they are supposed to be fight enders.


Doesn't mean the villains also can't have them. And if its not allowed for them because it won't be fun, shouldn't it work the other way around too?
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