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The Savage Worlds Official (kinda) Min / Maxxer Thread
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Do you Min / Max ?
Yep, proudly
26%
 26%  [ 24 ]
not unless it fits my character concept (or some other justification)
56%
 56%  [ 52 ]
Nope never. Period
17%
 17%  [ 16 ]
Total Votes : 92

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Wendigo1870
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Rippers:

Go for as much Positive Reason as possible (Down to Earth Edge, increasing Spirit (which in my campaign starts from character creation), ...), then go for a Spirit-focused character (Trait + Related skills).
My player with the PC Priest with AB: Miracles has a +3 Reason bonus (Spirit D8 = +2, DtE Edge = +1) on all his Spirit (related) rolls, including his Faith (casting skill), Guts, Persuasion, ...!

Another player maxxed out on Status 13 (Filthy Rich, Noble), which you can risk replacing your Charisma with. He can risk having negative Charisma (through Rippertech or Hindrances, ...), 'cause he'll use his Status anyway. With a +13 bonus it's very unlikely he'll ever fail his roll, and other characters won't likely risk their own Status by opposing him. (This also immediately gives him the biggest advantage possible with the Connections Edge).
Of course should it ever happen he botches his rolls, he'll lose a massive -13 (or even -26!) Status.

And one of my players (a typical Slayer) is currently at -6 reason from various Rippertech implants. However with a few weeks downtime for him (recuperating from wounds, while the rest is researching and investigating), he'll smoke through a truckload of Opium to make up for this lost reason; It's very likely he'll end up with 0 reason at the end of the month (and a nasty Opium addiction, but hey, as opposed to -6 Reason that's a small price to pay).
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Style
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lucky trickster:

Young, Luck, Great Luck, Half-Folk
plus
Dirty Fighter, Really Dirty Fighter, Tricky Fighter, Acrobat

(With Really Dirty Fighter allowing you to spend a benny to get the drop.)


The lucky damage dealer:

Young, Luck, Great Luck, Half-Folk
plus
No Mercy


Someone already mentioned playing a lucky character and using Common bond. If your game uses qualities (from Sharkbites Volume 3, Number 2, page 10), playing a lucky character is not a bad strategy either.
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skylion
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuesday wrote:
Quote:
set your st and vig to d4, then take elderly, you get +5 smarts skill, but are Pace 5, and your ST and VIg can't go below d4
take Obese to bump the touchness, pace is now 4 with d4 running
take fleetfooted edge, brings pace back up to 6, and raises running die to d8

minor and major hindrance, one edge
+5 smarts skill points, tougness of 5 with is average, and you can run a bit faster than most. Not bad for a mage.


Holy crap, it's Archchancellor Ridcully.


Actually, it could be any one of the Wizards, with excpetions for perhaps the Wrangler and of course the Bursar. Ponder is on his way enough to be included in the first camp.
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking specifically that fleet-footed implies a certain physical fitness, despite Elderly and Obese, and that this specifically matched up with Ridcully.

But yes.
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Psy-Kosh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does Ridcully have the round shape popularized by the rest of the wizards? I got the impression that he's supposed to be all around fit. So low strength and vigor wouldn't quite fit him, would it?

Also, I want to say something about intelligence with regards to him, but he's not stupid either, not exactly. he's instead, well, Clueless may fit him. And perhaps either Overconfident or Arrogant, not sure which, and I'm not even completely certain about either of those.
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Sitting Duck
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd peg Ridcully as d6 in Smarts and d10 in Spirit. Of the Hindrances you suggested, Overconfident seems to fit best, though I'd add Stubborn.
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Psy-Kosh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definately stubborn, no question there.

Spirited? Hrm... Actually yeah, you're right, that works for him. :)
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Incredible Mulk
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, DaoLong, but Versailles is a city in France. Wink
Maybe you mean Versalis?
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Lucullus
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Didn't want to open a new thread for this... Reply with quote

I'm a new player of the SW system, and a new poster here.

My question is related to min/max, in a sense. When looking at the rules, the ambidexterity edge immediately jumps out as a way to make the strongest fighting character. That said, I'm here to ask you learned people how one can make a characer just as good at fighting without using this edge?

Is it possible?

OR do I have to take it just to ensure my fighting abilities will be the best?

For reference: The campaign is in a medieval setting. Currently, my character has sword and shield+armour. However, that can be changed.

Thanks in advance for any info you could provide.

Lucullus
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NulSyn
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Didn't want to open a new thread for this... Reply with quote

Lucullus wrote:
I'm a new player of the SW system, and a new poster here.

My question is related to min/max, in a sense. When looking at the rules, the ambidexterity edge immediately jumps out as a way to make the strongest fighting character. That said, I'm here to ask you learned people how one can make a characer just as good at fighting without using this edge?

Is it possible?

OR do I have to take it just to ensure my fighting abilities will be the best?

For reference: The campaign is in a medieval setting. Currently, my character has sword and shield+armour. However, that can be changed.

Thanks in advance for any info you could provide.

Lucullus


Ambidexterity doesn't do anything other than allow the character to use his off-hand with no penalties like his main-hand. How is that making a PC the strongest fighter?
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Style
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Didn't want to open a new thread for this... Reply with quote

Lucullus wrote:
My question is related to min/max, in a sense. When looking at the rules, the ambidexterity edge immediately jumps out as a way to make the strongest fighting character. That said, I'm here to ask you learned people how one can make a characer just as good at fighting without using this edge?


If your goal is to max parry, then this is true, but there are many aspects to being "good at fighting". There is toughness, there is dealing damage, there is getting extra attacks per round, and so on.

As far as survivability goes, I'd say maxing out your toughness is at least as effective as maxing out your parry, if not more so. After all, toughness is still useful verses ranged attacks. Of course, killing your enemies as quickly as possible (which usually means dealing massive damage) is a pretty effective strategy as well.

Edit: For some reason my mind read "acrobat" instead of "ambidexterity". Surprised Embarassed

At any rate, there is a popular school of thought that says wield the biggest two handed weapon you can find, run up strength, and do everything you can to deal as much damage per blow as possible (wild attack, berserk, no mercy, etc). Not a bad strategy in a game where you have to overcome toughness, especially if your GM likes to throw a lot of monsters at you.
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ambidexterity is certainly the first step on *one* way to make a great warrior. However, it only eliminates a single -2 penalty, and in order to use it, you are limited to one-handed weapons.

Two-Fisted is generally a stronger Edge because it eliminates *two* -2 penalties - the Multi-action penalty when attacking with both hands - but Two-Fisted doesn't help you if your right hand is injured or restrained and you're making a single action with your left. It also doesn't help you in non-combat situations the way Ambidextrous might.

As well, someone with Ambidextrous and Two-Fisted *does* make two attacks each round, both at no penalty. This is nice, but they're only one-handed attacks! For the same price (two Edges), I could buy Improved Frenzy and make two attacks with a greatsword! Assume a D10 strength, that means that rapier-and-dagger fighter makes two attacks, one at D10+D6 and one at D10+D4. The greatsword fighter makes two attacks, both at 2D10 damage.

The rapier-and-dagger fighter, of course, has *3* higher Parry, and doesn't require a D10 Strength - he can get by with a mere D6 Strength, *and* he can throw his offhand weapon if he needs to. It's a tradeoff.

If the two-handed fighter buys Improved Frenzy as well, he's got *three* attacks per round at no penalty, which no single-weapon fighter can match. However, a single-weapon fighter who buys Trademark Weapon (or Right Hand Of The Devil - HOLY CRAP!) gets it for every attack, where a two-handed fighter has to buy it twice as often to have it apply to all his attacks.

The two-weapon fighter is also giving up the benefit of a shield. This can be a serious advantage, especially in high fantasy games where magical shields exist, or in other games where Edges that give bonuses for shields apply.


So yeah. You can make a SCARY ambidextrous character, and going ambi/2F makes you scary and saves you a lot of points in other ways, but on the same points I can make a non-ambi/2F character who's scary in similar ways, and one who's scary in different ways. It's an advantage, but not an unbalancing one.

(One last SERIOUS advantage to Ambidextrous: Gun in right hand, sword in left. No unarmed defender penalties for you, no multi-action penalties for drawing a weapon, can attack at range or in melee each round at no penalty. Oh, and even if you stick to ranged combat on your turn, you still get the free melee attack against people who leave melee combat with you. Like I said, it's a NICE trick.)
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Style
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To follow up Tuesday, the beauty of SW is there are many ways to build a great character, that are all more or less balanced. Each has a trade off. Many other games don't have that.

For example, in Conan D20 you're almost a moron if you play a melee fighter who does NOT max out strength, use power attack, and wield the biggest two handed weapon you can find. They have a couple rules in place that make this hands down the most successful combination.
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Lucullus
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:23 am    Post subject: Re: Didn't want to open a new thread for this... Reply with quote

NulSyn wrote:

Ambidexterity doesn't do anything other than allow the character to use his off-hand with no penalties like his main-hand. How is that making a PC the strongest fighter?



I must clarify: With my very limited understanding of SW, it seems the best fighter will either max out his offence or his defence. He could go one way with ambidexterity, two weapons, and then later take two fisted etc... This gives him the most number of chances to explode his dice. On the flipside, a character with high str, shield (non-magical), armour, and high toughness will make it very hard for any fighter to damage him/her.


Therefore, if I make a defensive fighter with all the latter attributes, does the system put me on lesser/equal/greater footing than a fighter that goes all offensive? Or is the equivalent tactic to go all offensive but with a two-handed weapon? Meaning, offense is better than defense, generally?
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NulSyn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:34 am    Post subject: Re: Didn't want to open a new thread for this... Reply with quote

Lucullus wrote:
NulSyn wrote:

Ambidexterity doesn't do anything other than allow the character to use his off-hand with no penalties like his main-hand. How is that making a PC the strongest fighter?



I must clarify: With my very limited understanding of SW, it seems the best fighter will either max out his offence or his defence. He could go one way with ambidexterity, two weapons, and then later take two fisted etc... This gives him the most number of chances to explode his dice. On the flipside, a character with high str, shield (non-magical), armour, and high toughness will make it very hard for any fighter to damage him/her.


Therefore, if I make a defensive fighter with all the latter attributes, does the system put me on lesser/equal/greater footing than a fighter that goes all offensive? Or is the equivalent tactic to go all offensive but with a two-handed weapon? Meaning, offense is better than defense, generally?


In that case I agree with Tuesday. There are too many different ways for a fighter to go. I have seen plenty and can't say any of them were the "bestest" way.

But then again, my players don't really try to min/max.....they are more on the "what fits the character" type vibe.
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Lucullus
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: Didn't want to open a new thread for this... Reply with quote

NulSyn wrote:
Lucullus wrote:
NulSyn wrote:

Ambidexterity doesn't do anything other than allow the character to use his off-hand with no penalties like his main-hand. How is that making a PC the strongest fighter?



I must clarify: With my very limited understanding of SW, it seems the best fighter will either max out his offence or his defence. He could go one way with ambidexterity, two weapons, and then later take two fisted etc... This gives him the most number of chances to explode his dice. On the flipside, a character with high str, shield (non-magical), armour, and high toughness will make it very hard for any fighter to damage him/her.


Therefore, if I make a defensive fighter with all the latter attributes, does the system put me on lesser/equal/greater footing than a fighter that goes all offensive? Or is the equivalent tactic to go all offensive but with a two-handed weapon? Meaning, offense is better than defense, generally?


In that case I agree with Tuesday. There are too many different ways for a fighter to go. I have seen plenty and can't say any of them were the "bestest" way.

But then again, my players don't really try to min/max.....they are more on the "what fits the character" type vibe.



Oh believe me, I don't put too much thought into my character stats. But in the years I have played, there has usually been one or two members of the group that do. It is constantly held as a trump card by some, as the right to spoils and recognition (immature I know).

That isn't the worst of it. We've had characters turn on each other during games --> this is extremely unpleasant. Good characters have died. Ever since that time, I've been cautious of putting "cream-puffs before the wolves" as it were. This is as much to "protect" my character, as it is to do anything else.
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AFDia
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: Didn't want to open a new thread for this... Reply with quote

Lucullus wrote:
NulSyn wrote:

Ambidexterity doesn't do anything other than allow the character to use his off-hand with no penalties like his main-hand. How is that making a PC the strongest fighter?



I must clarify: With my very limited understanding of SW, it seems the best fighter will either max out his offence or his defence. He could go one way with ambidexterity, two weapons, and then later take two fisted etc... This gives him the most number of chances to explode his dice. On the flipside, a character with high str, shield (non-magical), armour, and high toughness will make it very hard for any fighter to damage him/her.


Therefore, if I make a defensive fighter with all the latter attributes, does the system put me on lesser/equal/greater footing than a fighter that goes all offensive? Or is the equivalent tactic to go all offensive but with a two-handed weapon? Meaning, offense is better than defense, generally?


In SWEX there are much more edges for the offensive fighter and only a few for the defensive one.
So I would say an "offense munchkin" would be the better choice, but you will have to invest every 5XP into an offensive edge while the defensive fighter can also take other (social, out-of-combat,...) edges and skills and is more flexible.

Additionally there are other ways to beat your enemies like tricks or test of wills. A maxxed out offensive fighter will not have a very high Agility score (he will need his Attribute enhancements for Strenght and Vigor) and he will end up with d4 Smarts, so if you have d8 or d10 Smarts, your chances to beat him with a Smarts trick and score a raise are very high which means -2 parry AND he is shaken until his next action ... VERY lethal for an offense guy which has a low parry.

The more flexible defensive fighter can put more points into other attributes or edges to avoid being tricked.

All in all it is very hard to say this or this one is better ... it really depends, because SW offers many ways to shaken or wound your enemies, so pure damage must not be the best way to do so. (although it is many times Wink )

The most important rule for min/maxxing is "one points on arcane background couldn't be wrong" Wink
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Lucullus
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: Didn't want to open a new thread for this... Reply with quote

AFDia wrote:

In SWEX there are much more edges for the offensive fighter and only a few for the defensive one.



Yes, one of the primary reasons for my concern...


Quote:
So I would say an "offense munchkin" would be the better choice, but you will have to invest every 5XP into an offensive edge while the defensive fighter can also take other (social, out-of-combat,...) edges and skills and is more flexible.



Flexiblity is the only alternative, as far as I can tell. I was initially looking for just as much potency, but in being harder to kill, rather than killing with ease. More and more, it seems, this is not viable. That my only alternative is to compensate with flexibility.


Quote:
Additionally there are other ways to beat your enemies like tricks or test of wills. A maxxed out offensive fighter will not have a very high Agility score (he will need his Attribute enhancements for Strenght and Vigor) and he will end up with d4 Smarts, so if you have d8 or d10 Smarts, your chances to beat him with a Smarts trick and score a raise are very high which means -2 parry AND he is shaken until his next action ... VERY lethal for an offense guy which has a low parry.



In your experience, is the rounded fighter just as powerful with tricks, taunts, and intimidation etc...? It's odd that you say strength and vigor is max'd, and not agility. Since agility is tied to the fighting skill, I would have thought the opposite would be more preferrable?


Quote:
The more flexible defensive fighter can put more points into other attributes or edges to avoid being tricked.

All in all it is very hard to say this or this one is better ... it really depends, because SW offers many ways to shaken or wound your enemies, so pure damage must not be the best way to do so. (although it is many times Wink )

The most important rule for min/maxxing is "one points on arcane background couldn't be wrong" Wink



Yes, it seems that I must weigh the differing options as I gain experience. Still, in your estimation, what options combo well?
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agility makes Fighting cheaper, but isn't *required*. You can have a D12 Fighting with a D4 Agility, and if Fighting is *all* you do that requires Agility, it may be cheaper that way and you can get a Strength and Vigor of D12 much faster.
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AFDia
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: Didn't want to open a new thread for this... Reply with quote

Lucullus wrote:
Yes, it seems that I must weigh the differing options as I gain experience. Still, in your estimation, what options combo well?


Depends on the setting, the GM, the playing style and much more.

Perhaps you should look at:
http://savagepedia.wikispaces.com/Unofficial+Combat+Edges

You could include some of these edges to your campaign if you think the 2-handed offensive fighter has too many edges in SW.
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