 |
Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
Discussion Forum for PEG/GWG
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Would you like to see an official on-the-fly magic system created for Savage Worlds? |
| Yes! I hate pre-packaged spells. |
|
12% |
[ 11 ] |
| Sure. It would provide more variety. |
|
34% |
[ 29 ] |
| Yeah, as long as it was balanced, it would be good. |
|
35% |
[ 30 ] |
| Meh. I don't care either way. |
|
4% |
[ 4 ] |
| No, too much potential for abuse. |
|
3% |
[ 3 ] |
| No. It sounds too complicated. |
|
4% |
[ 4 ] |
| No! I hate those kinds of systems! |
|
4% |
[ 4 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 85 |
|
| Author |
Message |
HawaiianBrian
Veteran
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 588
Location: Portland, Oregon
|
 Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: |
 |
|
No, I don't think so....
But truth be told, I ended up abandoning this whole thing recently in favor of a "graduated powers" method, since I couldn't come up with a system I felt totally comfortable with. Clint's was better than mine -- as usual  -- so I decided to go with his if it comes up in the future. But I always felt like something that scales would be nice, and especially if it allowed for easy power limiting, like if a GM wants only low magic, or low psionics, etc. in his campaign.
In case you're interested, it can be found here:
http://getsavaged.blogspot.com/2008/01/graduated-powers.html
-Bri
_________________
***** HawaiianBrian / getsavaged.blogspot.com ***** |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Lord Lance
Heroic
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1406
Location: Vicenza, Italy
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Clint wrote: |
Primary Effect: (OPP: Opposed Roll applies if target wishes) (Base cost: 1PP)
|
Hallo Clint. I was trying to use your guidelines to create some new or twisted power, but i can't understand your first line.
Is this means that the primary effect costs 1pp as start, and the enemy can make some kind of "saving throw" that i need to create (like Spellcasting VS Spirit or something)?
Supposing this is correct, if I want as first effect "Increase a Derived Stat by 2", then my power costs 2pp (if i don't add other effects) = +1 because any power starts at 1, and +1 because this particular effect has a +1 written beside the effect.
Am I wrong?
PS: to create a power that give a mege the possibility to teleport in a place he know but very distant (example: the town inn from the deeps of a dungeon, or his home from the other side of the kingdom), what kind of PP modifier i have to implement?
Another thing: similar request, but the mage wants to teleport to a divine plane (example: hell, or fairy realm).
In my campaign (coming from other game systems) i have some mage capable of. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16271
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord Lance wrote: | | Clint wrote: |
Primary Effect: (OPP: Opposed Roll applies if target wishes) (Base cost: 1PP)
|
Hallo Clint. I was trying to use your guidelines to create some new or twisted power, but i can't understand your first line.
Is this means that the primary effect costs 1pp as start, and the enemy can make some kind of "saving throw" that i need to create (like Spellcasting VS Spirit or something)? |
Pretty much. The effects listed below that line all cost 1 PP and are the "primary effects."
If the effect is detrimental to the target, they should get some kind of Opposed roll to resist it. Unless it's damage, which is already "resisted" by Toughness. It could be Spellcasting vs. Spirit or Vigor or Agility or whatever Attribute; examples of all of them exist in the core rulebook in one form or another I think.
| Lord Lance wrote: | Supposing this is correct, if I want as first effect "Increase a Derived Stat by 2", then my power costs 2pp (if i don't add other effects) = +1 because any power starts at 1, and +1 because this particular effect has a +1 written beside the effect.
Am I wrong? |
Slightly. The +1 listed if not for that primary effect, but to change it. The primary effect is +2 to a Derived Attribute and gaining an Edge if a raise is rolled. The +1 modifier changes it to gaining a Monstrous Special Ability if a raise is rolled.
Without that, it's simply a cost of 1 PP.
| Lord Lance wrote: | PS: to create a power that give a mege the possibility to teleport in a place he know but very distant (example: the town inn from the deeps of a dungeon, or his home from the other side of the kingdom), what kind of PP modifier i have to implement?
Another thing: similar request, but the mage wants to teleport to a divine plane (example: hell, or fairy realm). |
Hmm, that's a hard question to answer. I mean, personally, that kind of gets into the sort of powers that I might not even have in a setting or at least, only available near Legendary Rank (and even then, both might be a single power for me).
Anyway, the setting is really the key, and the decision of how powerful the GM wants mages to be. The key I would say is to look at the effect however.
Teleporting short distances (game inches) still leaves the character in a threatening situation potentially (though more distance does help).
Teleporting a mile or so pretty much automatically "rescues" the character from a hostile situation, but doesn't provide any support, aid, or protection from another possible hostile situation.
Teleporting to a home or safe haven is both an automatic rescue and almost always a guarantee of support and protection.
Planar travel is just way too setting and preferentially dependent for me to even guess at.
One thing to consider is that powers like these aren't dependent on balancing versus other powers in cost, but in balancing their use in game overall.
For instance, a Legendary mage could have a maximum of 35 personal PPs (maybe 40-45 or so with a special Edge or racial ability) recharging at up to 4 per hour, so it might be worth considering how often as GM such a caster might be able to use that kind of teleport or planar travel.
Perhaps 2 major teleports without needing to wait for a while to recharge, so the GM could cost it at 15 PPs per use. On the other hand, maybe the GM doesn't want that kind of caster (without aid) to just pop to another plane and pop back, so the cost for that is 20 PPs, meaning a caster with 35 PPs and Improved Rapid Recharge is going to have to wait at least an hour and 15 minutes before they can return.
Anyway, like I said, it all depends on the game and setting and what the GM wants more than any generic guideline for balancing basic effects, which those kind of things don't really fall into if that makes sense.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager
www.peginc.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Savage Yinn
Seasoned
Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 185
Location: England
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Clint wrote: | Improvised Magic Rules for Savage Worlds
By Clint Black
Modifications
Uses Small Burst Template (+1)
Uses Medium Burst Template (+2)
Uses Large Burst Template (+4)
Caster chooses who in Template is affected (+1)
|
So what about the Cone Template? Would that be a (+2) or a (+1)?
_________________
The Things Players Say:
-> "How much ammo can I carry before I fall over?"
-> "What's the stone staircase made out of? Stone?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16271
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Savage Yinn wrote: | | So what about the Cone Template? Would that be a (+2) or a (+1)? |
+2.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager
www.peginc.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Savage Yinn
Seasoned
Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 185
Location: England
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Clint wrote: | | Savage Yinn wrote: | | So what about the Cone Template? Would that be a (+2) or a (+1)? |
+2. |
I thought +2 sounded about right. Thanks for the conformation.
_________________
The Things Players Say:
-> "How much ammo can I carry before I fall over?"
-> "What's the stone staircase made out of? Stone?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Savage Yinn
Seasoned
Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 185
Location: England
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just so I've got this right, if I was to use this system to Summon a Minotaur from the SW:EX rules I'd use the following
Base: Summon [1]
Modifiers:
> Additional Attributes x6 [+6]
> Additional Skills x3 [+3]
> Additional Edges & Monstrous Abilities (Gore and Fleet Footed) [+1]
> Additional Monstrous Abilities (Size +2)* [+1]
> Damage: Horns Str+d4 [+0]
> Duration: 1 hour (1/hour) [+3]
That gives me a total of 15pp for summing a pet Minotaur for 1 hour...
Nice
Note:
* - I've surmised that an increase in size is equal to one Monstrous Ability
_________________
The Things Players Say:
-> "How much ammo can I carry before I fall over?"
-> "What's the stone staircase made out of? Stone?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TTM
Novice
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 97
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| This is fantastic, thank you so much. The examples for some of the less obvious effects are very helpful. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Savage Yinn
Seasoned
Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 185
Location: England
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TTM wrote: | | This is fantastic, thank you so much. The examples for some of the less obvious effects are very helpful. |
If you liked that, how about
Quagmire
Decrease a Derived Stat by 2 (Shaken with a Raise): Parry (OPP: Agility)[1]
Modifiers:
Large Burst Template [+3]
Duration 3 (1/round) [+1]
Range: Smarts [+1]
Total: 6pp
Turn the ground into a muddy quagmire that causes anyone caught in the LBT to become unsteady on their feet and less able to defend themselves. With a raise the victim is concentrating totally on staying upright that they are considered Shaken (this can not cause a wound).
This could come in handy when you are defending, show the enemy a weak point then when they attack it hit them with Quagmire.
_________________
The Things Players Say:
-> "How much ammo can I carry before I fall over?"
-> "What's the stone staircase made out of? Stone?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Keltheos
Seasoned
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 170
Location: SoCal
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| So now how to work this into a pp-less system like SK's casting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Savage Yinn
Seasoned
Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 185
Location: England
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've not seen SK, so I can't comment on that.
I was however going to make the suggestion that if you take time to "learn" a spell, that is make it a formal spell, then the spell casting is as normal.
If you are making up the spell on the fly, I was going to make that a -2 penalty to the casting check, with an extra modifier that depends on how many PP the spell comes to, say an additional -2 per 5 points.
So the Quagmire spell would have a modifier of -2 (for 6pp; or TN: 6) and the Minotaur Summons would be at -6 (or TN: 10). If the spells were known, or two harder if they were being made up on the spot.
_________________
The Things Players Say:
-> "How much ammo can I carry before I fall over?"
-> "What's the stone staircase made out of? Stone?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lord Lance
Heroic
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1406
Location: Vicenza, Italy
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thx Clint for the feedback.
I was tinkering with your guidelines, and doing some comparing with existent powers.
I notice that Blind and Blinding Flash in the Fantasy Toolkit World Builder are really overpowered, and PP cheap.
Damn, almost every human and creature/monster uses sight, so a -6 malus AND parry reduced to 2 is a huge advantage in every combat. Even the Blinding Flash, that should be a lower class magic, has a great range and a template effect!
PS: quick rules question: when in the powers i have to do an opposed Spellcasting vs. X (spirit, smarts etc.), do i have to reroll the spellcasting dice, and the opponent need to roll his trait, or do i keep the "original" spellcasting value that i rolled to "turn on" the magic?
I think that, like the attack spells use the original value as "aim roll" too, so i should do this with the other spells. Am i wrong? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16271
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord Lance wrote: | I was tinkering with your guidelines, and doing some comparing with existent powers.
I notice that Blind and Blinding Flash in the Fantasy Toolkit World Builder are really overpowered, and PP cheap.
Damn, almost every human and creature/monster uses sight, so a -6 malus AND parry reduced to 2 is a huge advantage in every combat. Even the Blinding Flash, that should be a lower class magic, has a great range and a template effect! |
Eh, there are differences on the other side of the cost too. My system doesn't account for Rank requirements (Blind is Seasoned) or options other than an Opposed Roll to resist (Blinding Flash isn't opposed).
Ultimately, my system isn't "official" and wasn't even originally designed for creating new powers to work with the existing system. It's proved useful to some for that, but honestly, it's unavoidably imperfect at such a use and is no substitute for whether a power "feels right" to me.
| Lord Lance wrote: | PS: quick rules question: when in the powers i have to do an opposed Spellcasting vs. X (spirit, smarts etc.), do i have to reroll the spellcasting dice, and the opponent need to roll his trait, or do i keep the "original" spellcasting value that i rolled to "turn on" the magic?
I think that, like the attack spells use the original value as "aim roll" too, so i should do this with the other spells. Am i wrong? |
If a target gets an opposed roll versus Arcane Skill when cast, then they roll against the total generated during the casting. In short, whatever the caster rolled for activation is what they are up against.
But if a target gets an opposed roll to resist or escape a power after casting, then Arcane Skill has to be rerolled (for instance, Puppet is cast and the target rolls against the original casting roll and fails; later the caster commands them to attack an ally and he gets another roll to break free; both reroll at that time).
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager
www.peginc.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lord Lance
Heroic
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1406
Location: Vicenza, Italy
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
So, Clint, do you think the powers included in the Fantasy Toolkit are quite good? I'm a little bit concerned about the effect of those two powers... (ps. in the Darkness chapter the manual says the modifier is -4. Is this right or i have to keep the -6?)
Even Petrify seems a little cheap to cast: damn, a failed roll to resist, and you are a "traffic cone", so other enemies can strike out at you freely for 3 rounds!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16271
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord Lance wrote: | | So, Clint, do you think the powers included in the Fantasy Toolkit are quite good? I'm a little bit concerned about the effect of those two powers... (ps. in the Darkness chapter the manual says the modifier is -4. Is this right or i have to keep the -6?) |
Read the entry for the Blind Hindrance. "Total Darkness" is not absolute blindness; as noted, it's still possible to catch a glint of light.
And yeah, I think they are good, but it's not just reading the powers but the section before them...
| Quote: | We’ve come up with a batch of new powers for you to use, ignore, or alter as you see fit. <snip>
If you don’t like a power, don’t allow it in your world. If you want to increase or decrease the cost, range, or effect, you can do so without worrying about keeping things canon. |
We aren't just whistling Dixie there or proclaiming a "Rule Zero." That is a very important part of the system. There's no way to add in so many additional powers and make them all balanced for every setting or equally useful. There can be no canon in an inherently variable situation.
If a GM allows all those powers unchanged, there will be some players jump on and others they never touch, and they very likely will be different based on the setting and the game. It really is important to "use, ignore, or alter as you see fit" with them.
That said, consider them carefully; for instance...
| Lord Lance wrote: | | Even Petrify seems a little cheap to cast: damn, a failed roll to resist, and you are a "traffic cone", so other enemies can strike out at you freely for 3 rounds!!! |
Compare it to Puppet. Also a Veteran spell costing 1 PP more. Fail and for 3 rounds, you are an ally; plus when I'm done with you, we can make one more Opposed Roll and if I win, I don't even have to waste an action to kill you; you will do it yourself. Petrify is really nothing more than a trapping of Puppet limited in ability with a lower cost and better range.
One thing to keep in mind about any power with a Rank higher that Novice; the character has to spend an entire Edge just for that one power; they can't get it as part of their "free" beginning powers. That's can be a pretty significant cost.
Anyway, hope that helps in some way and isn't just rambling (need more coffee this morning).
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager
www.peginc.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lord Lance
Heroic
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1406
Location: Vicenza, Italy
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Clint wrote: |
And yeah, I think they are good, but it's not just reading the powers but the section before them...
| Quote: | We’ve come up with a batch of new powers for you to use, ignore, or alter as you see fit. <snip>
If you don’t like a power, don’t allow it in your world. If you want to increase or decrease the cost, range, or effect, you can do so without worrying about keeping things canon. |
|
I know this thing, but i hate this kind of phrases in "generalistic" toolkits.
I like toolkits and sourcebook with lots of pre-made, well balanced powers, edge and so on.
It's too easy to write a book with a lot of "hints for master" or "random created stuff", then justify the lack of professionality (or playtesting, or official careful supervision of the product), inserting that phrase: "If you don’t like a power, don’t allow it in your world. If you want to increase or decrease the cost, range, or effect, you can do so without worrying about keeping things canon"
Of course, it's obvious that in some campaign, a master could disallow a teleport power, or a metamorph one, if these are far from the spirit of his setting: but i like to know if those powers are nicely done, near balanced each other. Then i can choose that in my game i don't like the "snake sword", and i put other 5 PPs required to launch it
Well, i'm not attacking your products in particular, this is my yell out for some kind of products (recent examples: for True20 i brought Adept Handbook and Expert Handbook. They are full of incongruous ruling, very far from the spirit of the original core manual, and there are a lot of powers wrote superficially, missing important rules, with no balances each other, without necessary informations: lifespan, prerequisites etc...)
Naturally, they write "If you don't like, don't use", but i don't like to buy manuals that i don't want to use ^____^ or that i have to re-twist if i want some balanced elements... If i wanna work, i do edges and powers by myself... ^O^ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16271
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord Lance wrote: | I know this thing, but i hate this kind of phrases in "generalistic" toolkits.
I like toolkits and sourcebook with lots of pre-made, well balanced powers, edge and so on.
It's too easy to write a book with a lot of "hints for master" or "random created stuff", then justify the lack of professionality (or playtesting, or official careful supervision of the product), inserting that phrase: "If you don’t like a power, don’t allow it in your world. If you want to increase or decrease the cost, range, or effect, you can do so without worrying about keeping things canon"
Of course, it's obvious that in some campaign, a master could disallow a teleport power, or a metamorph one, if these are far from the spirit of his setting... |
As I pointed out with Petrify, there is balance in the design of the powers in the book, but the question of whether they will be equally balanced in a specific setting is up the the GM, but with so many specific powers in the book (over twice as many as the core rulebook), it would be impossible for them all to be equally balanced in every setting.
Basically I'm just pointing out that balance is equally obviously not simply a factor of the "spirit" of the setting, but the underlying inherent premises of it as well. Being able to breath underwater is much more effective in 50 Fathoms than in some Dark Sun conversion. Or to use an example from the book, Tongue Tied is a great spell in a setting with verbal-dependent spellcasting, but significantly less so without that Setting Rule.
Savage Worlds isn't a system that is going to say both of those powers work in exactly the same way in settings where there is a huge disparity in their usefulness. Its goal is to be a core system, not a "universal" one.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager
www.peginc.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lord Lance
Heroic
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1406
Location: Vicenza, Italy
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
x Clint:
I resume this post to add some requests:
- I'm creating some "Summon Specific Creature" spells for a player of mine, who likes to evoke spiritic allies like a shaman. This is not just a trapping, 'cause during play the spirits speak with him, become upset or helpful in particular situations etc. So I'm using your "system" as guideline.
How is worth the "cool" Zombi duration?
It's 1 hour / d6 hours / 1 day, using up 2 raises.
- How you manage Ranks? Is just a "limiter" to players, so they can't get powerful powers from the start, or has some ohter effect calculated in the stats of the spells?
Example, a Summon Creature with a 20 PPs requested for his stats, should be a Legendary spell, I think, 'cause the difficulty to cast a summoned creature is ever the same, no matter how powerful is... (ok, you need the PPs to evoke it, but it's quite simple to get them for a mage, and even accelerate the recovery of the points)
Or should the Rank give some "extra points" or effects?
- PS: In the new Fantasy Toolkit we'll get also a similar system? Or "just" a lot of pre-made spells? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lord Lance
Heroic
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1406
Location: Vicenza, Italy
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
Another question related to summon spells:
It's my initiative card. I choose to summon a creature. Can the summoned one take his action in this turn (som moviment and attack), just after the summoning, or do I have to wait next initiative card?
When I take the next initiative card: is this the first or the second turn of the summoned creature? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16271
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord Lance wrote: | How is worth the "cool" Zombi duration?
It's 1 hour / d6 hours / 1 day, using up 2 raises. |
Well, obviously, at least a +3 for the base hour duration. As for the extras, that's kind of a juggling act. Zombie has some built in limiters in that it requires existing bodies to use, so it gets some extra effect from that (extended duration). My system clearly isn't built to adjust for such specific trappings modifiers.
| Lord Lance wrote: | | - How you manage Ranks? |
Well, as I said earlier, the system just wasn't designed to take Rank into account, but I guess I'd reduce the base cost of the power by 1 PP per Rank above Novice.
| Lord Lance wrote: | | - PS: In the new Fantasy Toolkit we'll get also a similar system? Or "just" a lot of pre-made spells? |
The Fantasy Companion will have pre-made powers, but some of the powers are a bit more flexible in their use, such as a basic Summon power adaptable to summoning different things. There is also a bit more detail on adjusting powers based on their trappings.
| Lord Lance wrote: | It's my initiative card. I choose to summon a creature. Can the summoned one take his action in this turn (som moviment and attack), just after the summoning, or do I have to wait next initiative card?
When I take the next initiative card: is this the first or the second turn of the summoned creature? |
A summoned creature can act on the round it is summoned, so the next initiative card would be the second round of the power's duration.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager
www.peginc.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
