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Paul_Va
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Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 23
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 Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:38 am Post subject: Stats for a Wolfwere |
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| So, I'm working on converting a lot of the Ravenloft material to SW, and I'm looking at the Wolfweres in the Feast of Goblins adventure. I'm thinking that I could just use the werewolf stats. Does anyone have any advice or experience with this? |
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4467
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Core Rules werewolves are very mean. Very, very mean. The Invulnerability is what really sets them over the top - other than that, they are powerful and nasty fighters, but nothing ridiculous.
A wolf-were is simply a wolf that transforms into a man. It's exactly like a werewolf, except the base form is a wolf instead of a human. So, werewolf stats would be completely appropriate for the hybrid form.
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Zadmar
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Posts: 1380
Location: Munich
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Taking the Pathfinder wolfwere and feeding it into my conversion tool gives the following:
Wolfwere
Attributes: Agility d10, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d8, Vigor d10
Skills: Fighting d8, Notice d8, Stealth d8, Survival d6
Charisma: -; Pace: 8; Parry: 6; Toughness: 8 (1)
Hindrances: None
Edges: None
Special Abilities
• Armour +1: Natural armour.
• Bite: Str+d4; trip.
• Low Light Vision: No penalties for dim or dark lighting.
• Infravision: Half vision penalties for darkness.
With some tweaking, how about:
Wolfwere
Attributes: Agility d10, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d8, Vigor d10
Skills: Fighting d8, Notice d8, Stealth d8, Survival d6, Tracking d6
Charisma: -; Pace: 8 (wolf), 6 (other); Parry: 6; Toughness: 10 (1)
Gear: Bastard sword
Hindrances: Bloodthirsty
Edges: None
Special Abilities
• Armour +1: Natural armour while in wolf or hybrid form.
• Bite: Str+d4 (wolf or hybrid form only).
• Go for the Throat Bite hits least armoured location on a raise.
• Low Light Vision: No penalties for dim or dark lighting.
• Infravision: Half vision penalties for darkness.
• Very Tough: The wolfwere has +2 Toughness (included in the above stats).
• Weakness: Cold iron inflicts +2 damage against the wolfwere.
• Change Form: Can assume human, wolf or hybrid form with a Smarts roll.
• Lethargy: Works like the Slow power, but within a MBT and cast with Spirit. |
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Kevin
Seasoned
Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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I think (I could be wrong, all my books are locked up) there's a werewolf statted in the core. First question I would ask is, "What's the difference between a werewolf and a wolfwere?" The stats might be interchangeable with some different trappings. Or at least scalable.
My second question would be, "Is there anything specific about the Ravenloft wolfweres that sets them apart from the conventional, generic fantasy wolfwere?" That's probably the work of Edges and monstrous abilities.
If you have a base werewolf stat to work from, this shouldn't take you more than fifteen minutes to figure out. If it does, you might be overthinking it.
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Zadmar
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Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1380
Location: Munich
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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The term "wolfwere" actually originates from D&D, and it's a completely different creature to a werewolf (aside from the obvious shapechanging); they don't care about silver, the moon has no control over them, and they can't "infect" people - they're a race, not a disease.
The original version in my tattered old "Monster Manual 2" describes how they can "take the form of a human male or female of considerable charisma", or assume a hybrid form. They can only be hurt by cold iron or magic weapons, and they have a magic song which works like the slow spell. They are disgusted by wolfsbane, and hate werewolves. |
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Kevin
Seasoned
Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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So yeah, it's all trappings, plus one power.
Scale the dice down to balance the new power, and you're off to the races.
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| Snate56 wrote: | | I know to some people this is blasphemy, but there is such a thing as too much detail... |
| Jux wrote: | | Perfection is not when there is nothing more to add, but nothing more to take away. |
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Zadmar
Heroic
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Trappings?  Four of the six werewolf abilities would need to be dropped, new abilities added, Strength needs to be lowered, Smarts raised, and some of the skills adjusted... Overall it'd probably be faster to use the regular wolf stats as a starting point, both mechanically and thematically. |
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Kevin
Seasoned
Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Zadmar wrote: | | Trappings? :lol: Four of the six werewolf abilities would need to be dropped, new abilities added, Strength needs to be lowered, Smarts raised, and some of the skills adjusted... |
That's the result your simulation returns. My simulation returns a different answer.
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| Snate56 wrote: | | I know to some people this is blasphemy, but there is such a thing as too much detail... |
| Jux wrote: | | Perfection is not when there is nothing more to add, but nothing more to take away. |
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Paul_Va
Novice
Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Zadmar wrote: | Taking the Pathfinder wolfwere and feeding it into my conversion tool gives the following:
Wolfwere
Attributes: Agility d10, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d8, Vigor d10
Skills: Fighting d8, Notice d8, Stealth d8, Survival d6
Charisma: -; Pace: 8; Parry: 6; Toughness: 8 (1)
Hindrances: None
Edges: None
Special Abilities
• Armour +1: Natural armour.
• Bite: Str+d4; trip.
• Low Light Vision: No penalties for dim or dark lighting.
• Infravision: Half vision penalties for darkness.
With some tweaking, how about:
Wolfwere
Attributes: Agility d10, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d8, Vigor d10
Skills: Fighting d8, Notice d8, Stealth d8, Survival d6, Tracking d6
Charisma: -; Pace: 8 (wolf), 6 (other); Parry: 6; Toughness: 10 (1)
Gear: Bastard sword
Hindrances: Bloodthirsty
Edges: None
Special Abilities
• Armour +1: Natural armour while in wolf or hybrid form.
• Bite: Str+d4 (wolf or hybrid form only).
• Go for the Throat Bite hits least armoured location on a raise.
• Low Light Vision: No penalties for dim or dark lighting.
• Infravision: Half vision penalties for darkness.
• Very Tough: The wolfwere has +2 Toughness (included in the above stats).
• Weakness: Cold iron inflicts +2 damage against the wolfwere.
• Change Form: Can assume human, wolf or hybrid form with a Smarts roll.
• Lethargy: Works like the Slow power, but within a MBT and cast with Spirit. |
Wow, this website is amazing. This is going to change how I plan for my campaigns. Thank you much for sharing this. |
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Takeda
Heroic
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Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 1332
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:24 am Post subject: |
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To me they were just intelligent wolves that could take an anthropomorphic shape. So the only change is their Smarts wouldn't be (A) {I.E. Animal} anymore, add claws so bite/claws Str+d4.
They could be big wolves thus Size +0.
WOLFWERES
Wolfweres are supernatural creatures resembling wolves that are more intelligent and can take a humanoid shape. Otherwise they are just like any other typical Wolf.
Attributes: Agility d8, Smarts d6, Spirit d6, Strength d6, Vigor d6
Skills: Fighting d6, Notice d10, Stealth d6, Survival d8, Tracking d8
Pace: 8; Parry: 5; Toughness: 5
Special Abilities
• Bite/Claw: Str+d4.
• Fleet Footed: Wolfweres roll a d10 when running instead of a d6.
• Go for the Throat: Wolfweres instinctively go for an opponent’s soft spots. With a raise on its attack roll, it hits the target’s most weakly-armored location.
• Low Light Vision: No penalties for dim or dark lighting.
• Change Form: Wolfweres can take the form of a humanoid wolf and can use equipment/armour as a humanoid. Their change takes 3/rds and equipment does not change with them.
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Zadmar
Heroic
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1380
Location: Munich
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Kevin wrote: | | That's the result your simulation returns. My simulation returns a different answer. |
It's not about simulations, it's about converting the actual monster from Ravenloft rather than guessing what it can do based solely on its name.
| Paul_Va wrote: | | Wow, this website is amazing. This is going to change how I plan for my campaigns. Thank you much for sharing this. |
You're welcome, I'm glad you find my post useful! You may also want to have a read over this thread, and take a look at the official D20 to Savage Worlds conversion document.
| Takeda wrote: | | To me they were just intelligent wolves that could take an anthropomorphic shape. |
That's absolutely fine if you're creating your own monster, but in this case the OP is trying to convert the D&D Ravenloft material, and wolfweres (a term which even originates with D&D) are a special type of magical beast with supernatural powers beyond what is suggested by the mere name. |
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Kevin
Seasoned
Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Zadmar wrote: | The term "wolfwere" actually originates from D&D, and it's a completely different creature to a werewolf (aside from the obvious shapechanging); they don't care about silver, the moon has no control over them, and they can't "infect" people - they're a race, not a disease.
The original version in my tattered old "Monster Manual 2" describes how they can "take the form of a human male or female of considerable charisma", or assume a hybrid form. They can only be hurt by cold iron or magic weapons, and they have a magic song which works like the slow spell. They are disgusted by wolfsbane, and hate werewolves. |
Tell us, exactly which of the above is not "suggested by the mere name."
Shapechange? Check.
Vulnerability to a specific metal? Check.
Repelled by wolfsbane? Check.
Not a disease? If you'd read the D&D section on "lycanthrope" a little closer ... check.
Not affected by the moon? Ditto.
It's a werewolf, dude. Doesn't matter how you want to convert it, whether you're using a sim or, as you put it, "just guessing."
Granted, like so many other D&D monsters, it's a poorly conceived hack of it's original self, and the game probably would have been better off without it .. but that's the neat thing about conversions -- you have an opportunity to fix the previous designer's contrivances.
_________________
| Snate56 wrote: | | I know to some people this is blasphemy, but there is such a thing as too much detail... |
| Jux wrote: | | Perfection is not when there is nothing more to add, but nothing more to take away. |
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Paul_Va
Novice
Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Kevin wrote: | Tell us, exactly which of the above is not "suggested by the mere name."
Shapechange? Check.
Vulnerability to a specific metal? Check.
Repelled by wolfsbane? Check.
Not a disease? If you'd read the D&D section on "lycanthrope" a little closer ... check.
Not affected by the moon? Ditto.
It's a werewolf, dude. Doesn't matter how you want to convert it, whether you're using a sim or, as you put it, "just guessing." |
Kevin, I think you're inferring quite a bit more from the name than is obvious. I don't see how simply the name "wolfwere" tells us anything about its ability to shapechange or its attitude towards metal, wolfsbane, or the moon. Honestly, the first time I saw it in a D&D product, I thought it was a typo. But after further reading, I realized it was a distinct monster.
Granted I've also always found the entire concept of a wolfwere to be somewhat odd. I think what the writers had in mind was akin to the Japanese mythology around foxes and badgers that take human shapes in order to play foul tricks on people. Somewhere in the implementation, however, this notions seems to have become conflated with the idea of a werewolf. I find the two concepts to be strange bedfellows, but I want to convert the original setting faithfully, nevertheless. Moreover, the musical features of the wolfwere seem to be very unique to the wolfwere monster, as I've never seen anything of the kind associated with werewolves. |
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HawaiianBrian
Veteran
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 583
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Paul_Va wrote: | | Wow, this website is amazing. This is going to change how I plan for my campaigns. Thank you much for sharing this. |
I've already gotten some use of that that monster converter to make a juggernaut for a Beasts & Barbarians adventure I'm going to run.pic
I can't imagine what it took to code that.
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Kevin
Seasoned
Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Paul, I'm flabbergasted that you don't see the linguistic tie between "werewolf" and "wolfwere." The name tells you everything.
Okay, let me show you … Take the base stats for "werewolf" in SWD or SWEX. Change "Weakness: silver" to "Weakness: iron." Add the Sleep power. Swap out the Hindrance-ey bit about lunar cycles for a Phobia Hindrance toward wolfsbane. Presto-change-o, it's a wolfwere.
I appreciate that you want to replicate the monster as close to the original as possible. But due to the abstract nature of Savage Worlds game stats, you could spend DAYS calculating the probabilities and point spreads—and at the end of it, no matter which way you slice it, they're both still gonna have a d6 Strength.*
Just trying to save you some time. Besides, it was your idea in the first place:
| You wrote: | | … I'm looking at the Wolfweres in the Feast of Goblins adventure. I'm thinking that I could just use the werewolf stats. |
On that other note, I don't think they were going for a Japanese mythology thing at all. The wolfwere was progeny of Tactical Studies Research, way back in the 80's or even earlier. And we all know the legacy of splat books TSR left behind …
I think a bunch of designers were pulling an all-nighter, trying to make quota so they could keep their jobs in the morning. Fueled on nothing but Mountain Dew, black coffee, and Chinese takeout for 37 consecutive, sleepless hours, they started having really bad ideas. "Hey guys, I got one! It's like a [random monster], but it's BACKWARDS! Let's stat it!"
Twenty pages later, we get werewolves AND wolfweres, drow AND dark elves, githyanki AND githzerai, rust monsters AND aurumvoraxes (aurumvoraces?), beholders AND whatever those weird cyclopean humanoids under the "beholder" entry were, and so on and so on. And THEY got to keep their internships.
Similar situations, I'm sure, were responsible for the bulette and the tarrasque, not to mention "gem dragons." We had evil dragons, we had good dragons, we just HAD to have neutral dragons, too.
* I think Zadmar's sim overinflates the stats, anyway.
_________________
| Snate56 wrote: | | I know to some people this is blasphemy, but there is such a thing as too much detail... |
| Jux wrote: | | Perfection is not when there is nothing more to add, but nothing more to take away. |
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Zadmar
Heroic
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1380
Location: Munich
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| Paul_Va wrote: | | Granted I've also always found the entire concept of a wolfwere to be somewhat odd. I think what the writers had in mind was akin to the Japanese mythology around foxes and badgers that take human shapes in order to play foul tricks on people. |
You mean like the Kitsune? Interesting theory, you could be onto something there...Kitsune were supposed to have superior intelligence and magical powers (like the wolfwere) - and in classical Japanese, kitsu-ne actually means "come and sleep". Coincidence, or possible inspiration for the magical lethargy power?
There's also the Korean "Kumiho", a fox that can transform into a beautiful girl, then seduces and eats people. Compare that with the wolfwere entry in MM2, which states that they "take the form of a human male or female of considerable charisma" and "slyly hunts, slays and devours its favored prey - men, halflings, elves, etc".
And if you think the "wolfwere" was an odd name, you should the MM2 entry before it - the "Wolf-in-sheep's-clothing", which is a vegetable monster that looks like a tree stump, with an animated growth on top that looks like a cute bunny! I think by that point the authors were struggling a bit for ideas, but let's not dwell on it too long or someone might decide to convert it based on the name, using the wolf stats and sheepskin armour 
| HawaiianBrian wrote: | I've already gotten some use of that that monster converter to make a juggernaut for a Beasts & Barbarians adventure I'm going to run.pic
I can't imagine what it took to code that. |
It was surprisingly simple, particularly compared to the combat simulator and the superhero generator. It basically just identifies different sequences of text, extracts the data, and converts it into the Savage Worlds equivalent, using the guidelines set out in the official d20 to Savage Worlds conversion document. I then expanded it to handle swarms, calculate weapons, assign edges, and so on.
| Kevin wrote: | | I think Zadmar's sim overinflates the stats, anyway. |
The stat conversions follow the "d20 to Savage Worlds conversion" document, written by Shane Hensley (author of Savage Worlds) and distributed by Pinnacle Entertainment Group. |
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Paul_Va
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Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| I wish I could "+1" your post, Zadmar. This board needs a +1 button. |
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ValhallaGH
Legendary
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4467
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin wrote: | | I think Zadmar's sim overinflates the stats, anyway. |
It either follows the d20 to Savage Worlds conversion guidelines, or tones them down.
There are two issues with converting d20 to anything else.
First, d20 creatures above CR 8, are unbelievably powerful. Once you understand that a 3rd level Warrior (NPC class) is a bad ass human, everything above CR 8 is a power level that hurts a real human's brain to contemplate. As such, their numbers are amazingly large - large enough to cause serious issues in less superheroic systems (SW does superheroic, but not as unthinkingly as SRD d20 does).
Second, is that d20 stats are usually based upon the desired CR rather than on what the critter is capable of. They were built in a meta game, to challenge parties of level X, rather than being based upon the fluff text. Of course, exceptions exist (including some iconic foes like ogres and trolls), but on the whole their numbers are based upon the expected numbers of PCs of level X - the previously mentioned superheroes and demigods that are the average PC group in SRD d20 games. This is one of the big reasons for the first point.
The result is that any conversion from d20 to a less "raw power" system makes the converted creature extremely stout.
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"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die." |
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Kevin
Seasoned
Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ValhallaGH wrote: | | Second, is that d20 stats are usually based upon the desired CR rather than on what the critter is capable of. They were built in a meta game, to challenge parties of level X, rather than being based upon the fluff text. |
And this is where it falls apart. The monsters weren't built to represent what they actually are for the sake of the story. They were build to support the game's "replay value," and/or the marketability of the books.
How many times has it come up on this board before:
Don't convert stats. Convert setting and story.
I see it in dozens and dozens of topics. You've even said it yourself, Val.
Regarding the d20/SW Conversion—well, I've never read it. I've never had a need to, since following the above rule makes it pretty clear how to proceed.
I was taught by my first GM, and believe it even more after running my own games and following these boards for a few years, that a d6 Attribute represents what's "normal for an average human." A d6 Trait, likewise, represents what's "normal for someone with training in the skill."
Now, you can be at the "top end of average" and still not quite be "above average." Since SW numbers are more abstract and each represents a wider range of "normal," I've taken the range of 8 to 13 in d20 stats to represent "normal"—the range of d20 bonuses -1 to +1. A +2 d20 bonus adds a die type, a +4 adds another, and so on.
d20 . . . . . . . SW
3 . . . . . . . . . d4-2
4-7 . . . . . . . d4
8-13 . . . . . . d6
14-17 . . . . . d8
18-21 . . . . . d10
22-25 . . . . . d12
26-29 . . . . . d12+1
30-33 . . . . . d12+2
I've checked and double-checked the accuracy of this system on a case-by-case basis using a sophisticated algorithm:
| Code: | 1) Can you see it happening?
a) Yes. absolutely. Go to 2.
b) Mmm … sure, maybe. Go to 2.
c) I doubt it. Go to 3.
d) No. No way at all. Go to 3.
2) You're done.
3) Raise or lower the stat one die type. Go to 1. |
So by this standard, a werewolf (as checked on the D&D Wiki) gets a d8 in Strength and Agility in wolf and hybrid forms only, and is otherwise straight d6s all the way across. Everything else follows directly from the attributes. Attack bonuses convert to Fighting rolls in a similar way.
Now, Zadmar's has d10s and d8s for Attributes. This puts him into d20s 18-21 range for Agility and Vigor, and 14-17 for the other three. I find that overpowered.
_________________
| Snate56 wrote: | | I know to some people this is blasphemy, but there is such a thing as too much detail... |
| Jux wrote: | | Perfection is not when there is nothing more to add, but nothing more to take away. |
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Zadmar
Heroic
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1380
Location: Munich
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ValhallaGH wrote: | | First, d20 creatures above CR 8, are unbelievably powerful. Once you understand that a 3rd level Warrior (NPC class) is a bad ass human, everything above CR 8 is a power level that hurts a real human's brain to contemplate. As such, their numbers are amazingly large - large enough to cause serious issues in less superheroic systems (SW does superheroic, but not as unthinkingly as SRD d20 does). |
D&D has a zero-to-hero advancement system for characters, and the monsters reflect that - however the conversion tool flattens the monsters down. And you don't need to take my word for it; the conversion tool doesn't just convert the stats, it also pits the resulting monster against 29 creatures from the SWD bestiary in a series of battles and gives you a summary, so you can see for yourself how it compares. And it provides you with a second statblock that can be fed directly into the combat simulator if you want to run more extensive tests.
You can even feed the new monster into the battle simulator (along with other monsters) and see how it fares against the entire PC party. It's a pure melee comparison, and doesn't factor in tactics, but it's still enough to give you a general overview of their challenge rating.
But how do they really compare? Well, here's an adult red dragon (CR 14) against the SWD dragon, both are Wild Cards:
There were 10000 fights. Adult Red Dragon won 3300 of them, while SWD Dragon won 6700.
Here's a very old black dragon (CR 15):
There were 10000 fights. Pathfinder Very Old Black Dragon won 5089 of them, while SWD Dragon won 4911.
Here's a horned devil (CR 16):
There were 10000 fights. Horned Devil won 5861 of them, while SWD Dragon won 4139.
But in Savage Worlds, many creatures are Extras. What if the horned devil was an Extra (perhaps summoned by a infernalist)?
There were 10000 fights. Horned Devil won 1920 of them, while SWD Dragon won 8080.
The way I envision the tool being used is:
Step 1: Copy and paste the stats, and generate the initial version of the monster.
Step 2: See how it compares with other monsters and/or your players.
Step 3: Adjust the stats if necessary, fill in any extra abilities you might need.
| Kevin wrote: | | Don't convert stats. Convert setting and story. |
What SWD actually says is "When converting monsters and Extras, compare them to existing creatures in this rule book. That’s much easier—and much less confining—than trying to convert every attribute, skill, and hit point". But guideline refers to manual conversions.
It is simply not feasible to write a tool that automatically converts monsters based on descriptive text - and based on the text available, it's pretty much not possible. So that leaves me with two options:
1) Convert the stats, using the guidelines provided by the author of Savage Worlds, or:
2) Don't bother offering a tool, let people do all the work themselves.
I chose to go for option 1, and that appears to offend you. I'm not sure why. If you don't like it, just pretend I went for option 2 instead.
| Kevin wrote: | | Now, Shane Hensley's (author of Savage Worlds) has d10s and d8s for Attributes. This puts him into d20s 18-21 range for Agility and Vigor, and 14-17 for the other three. I find that overpowered. |
Fixed that for you. |
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