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[Reloaded] Just now reading through reloaded HoE. WtfJunker?

 
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rungok
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: [Reloaded] Just now reading through reloaded HoE. WtfJunker? Reply with quote

And I am overall excited about the game, but I am unhappy with Junkers. They were my favorite AB to use in classic, and now they're just recolored Mad Scientist sprites.

I loved the flexibility and complexity (maybe this is just me here) of being able to control every aspect of the inventing process. Yeah, not only could I make a gun (which is one of the most direct aspects of being a junker) but I could make a SMART gun that could target and shoot at things without me needing to do anything. I've made power armor that increased the user's strength and had shields, made a Vtol falcon with a 2mm minigun in it's beak for a familiar. I've even built a really badass cyberhorse.

But I can't really do... any of that with reloaded. At least not mechanically. Or even really thematically anymore. I expected there to be some reduction in ability since it was being converted to simplified system ('dumbed down') but I had sincerely hoped since the day I heard they were converting HoE that they WOULDN'T make them Mad Scientists...

I was actually surprised they even bothered to change the fluff to what it is in the core books. It really doesn't seem to DO anything different for them.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm just complaining. I really want to play a junker again, but if my marshal wants to use reloaded I'm having a hard time seeing a reason I should play a remake of Dr. Buck Sutton Rochefort III instead of some templar, who got a bunch of good treatment from the system changes.

Have I missed something about the Junker Archetype that would help alleviate the underwhelmed feeling it's giving me?
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PlatinumWarlock
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the revamped "Gadgeteer" edge that really makes Junkers go in HoER.

Essentially, you can replicate ANY power you could possibly conceive of, a number of times per session equal to half your Spirit die.

That's narrative flexibility in the utmost. While these gadgets don't necessarily stick around, it gives Junkers the ability to come up with all sorts of awesome things on the fly and come up with new ideas as situations arise.
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rungok
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh... well that's not so bad. More of the 'instant flexibility' than classic.

Still... I'm never going to see my cyber horse again, am I (I have to start the character over again...)

[EDIT]
I'm also no longer able to make gear for other people, am I? Well, normal stuff sure, but I couldn't give said cyber horse to the law dog and expect it to keep running so long as he feeds it spook juice?
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: [Reloaded] Just now reading through reloaded HoE. WtfJun Reply with quote

rungok wrote:
I loved the flexibility and complexity (maybe this is just me here) of being able to control every aspect of the inventing process.

You still have all that. In fact, you have even more control in reloaded because you don't have to limit yourself to the math of slots, spectacular die rolls, or years of in-game work.

rungok wrote:
Have I missed something about the Junker Archetype that would help alleviate the underwhelmed feeling it's giving me?

Aside from the Gadgeteer section that P.Warlock mentioned? Quite a bit, starting with the total freedom of Trappings. I'll come back to that in a minute. Cool

rungok wrote:
I'm also no longer able to make gear for other people, am I? Well, normal stuff sure, but I couldn't give said cyber horse to the law dog and expect it to keep running so long as he feeds it spook juice?

Yes, yes you absolutely can. Pull out the Savage Worlds core rules and re-read the rules for Weird Science. I'll wait. ... See the section labelled "More on Weird Science"? Do you see the subsection labelled "Sharing"? That's the relevant part. Very Happy

rungok wrote:
But I can't really do... any of that with reloaded. At least not mechanically. Or even really thematically anymore.

And we're almost back to that talk about Trappings that I promised. Smile
The theme for Junkers has not changed - they are techno shamans that slap scrap junk together, fuse in a technology spirit, and make things that should not work. That's constant.
[Aside] Since their powers do not drive them insane, they are not mad scientists. They aren't normal scientists by any means, but they don't have to be insane. This makes the category of Weird Scientist an excellent label for what Junkers do - science that is very strange. [/Aside]

Mechanically, it's all about the freedom of Trappings in savage worlds. Cyber horse? That's the speed power with a cyborg horse trapping. As a Marshal, I'd give you a riding horse with +2 pace and armor +3, that uses spook juice instead of food and water, and is not alive (probably the Construct trait; Undead is tempting but is more malevolent than what you're after). As an allied extra it is under the player's control, but it mostly follows the mounted combat rules. If it is killed, you can build a new one (or "rebuild" the old one) with 2d6 hours of work and access to necessary parts.
Smart gun? That's the trapping on a quickness power - the primary use is to give you extra actions. You need to use the Weird Science skill to turn it on, and it uses your shooting skill, but it sits where you put it (or maybe it's mobile; depends upon trappings) and shoots targets according to your "programmed rules of engagement."
Strength-boosting armor with shields? The boost strength power combined with either armor or deflection.
Familiar with a rotary cannon? That's tougher - we've got no rules for Junker familiars in HOE: Reloaded. I'd call it the Sidekick or Beast Friend edge, with a trapping that you built a robot buddy.

The disadvantage of relying upon trappings is that it requires a lot of imagination to come up with the concept, and then a combination of imagination and rules savvy to see what base mechanics you're starting from.
The advantage of trappings is that you can do almost anything, and that you aren't restricted to the powers that PEG wrote up. Nor are you limited by an arbitrary number of slots. Heck, the only limit is things that fit the style of the character.

That's (probably) why Summon Ally is not on the Junker power list - there was no vision the writers could come up with that justified Junkers summoning demons, golems, or elementals to fight for them.


I hope that helped. #gunbattle
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rungok
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I have to say, Color me impressed.

ValhallaGH, you've explained things to me in a way that has sparked my desire to play a junker again. Now I have a few (new) questions though.

While I do like the savage worlds system, I was uncertain how it was going to hold up. Now I can see that a power is not just any one power for a junker, it could be a *thing* he built that has that power. So it can have the stats of that thing, with the ability to use that power (Aforementioned horse).

The only thing that I have some resistance left on is that I see now I can 'hand over' my gizmo to someone to use for a while, but if I do, I can't make a second one while they're using that one, unless I take the power again or use my improved gadgeteer ability to have a temporary one.

I guess that limits the junkers ability to give the posse a passel o' plasma weapons then. Very Happy The gun spirits will be sad.

My other question is about having a gadget with multiple powers. I used to be able to make something that could have sensor (radar) and also flash gordon. Can I add a new power to one already existing gadget (when I get a new power of course) instead of building a disparate one?

Well, otherwise I think you've convinced me they're cool for reloaded. I missed much of the nuance indeed.

As an aside, I guess I know what I'd try to become if RL ever became a deadlands setting, because I LIKED doing all the calculations, planning, and working within the rules of constructing devices. Seriously my Marshall has a folder on his computer of photos taken of whiteboard engineer style covered in concisely written notes assembling a device. I had one for all my devices including aforementioned cyber horse and a suit of Iron man style armor. Like I said, I'm weird.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rungok wrote:
Well I have to say, Color me impressed.

ValhallaGH, you've explained things to me in a way that has sparked my desire to play a junker again.

Awesome! Glad to help. Very Happy
rungok wrote:
Now I have a few (new) questions though.

Groovy. [/Ash impression]

rungok wrote:
The only thing that I have some resistance left on is that I see now I can 'hand over' my gizmo to someone to use for a while, but if I do, I can't make a second one while they're using that one, unless I take the power again or use my improved gadgeteer ability to have a temporary one.

I'm assuming there was a question in there. Wink Yep. Our Junker made some "portal disks" - he'd place one here, toss one over there, and step through a small tunnel in the hunting grounds (the teleport power). He once whipped up a "teleport box" to assist an assault on The Bishop - a metal box that held two people and could "pull them" to one of his arrival beacons; a very creative and effective use of Gadgeteer.
Similarly, he whipped up some Diving Rigs for us all (environmental protection power) when we had to go swimming around the Dead Pool - and then did it again to aid reconnaissance of a mutant horde besieging the city.

For your hypothetical plasma cannons, the "loaners" all have a critical flaw that gives them very limited utility - one use spirit batteries, critical components melt into slag, or maybe the dang thing explodes when it's used up. Whatever the trappings, it only works for a short time. Cool

rungok wrote:
My other question is about having a gadget with multiple powers. I used to be able to make something that could have sensor (radar) and also flash gordon. Can I add a new power to one already existing gadget (when I get a new power of course) instead of building a disparate one?

You can, but that actually weakens the new power - it's tied to an existing device and is lost when the device is removed (destruction or theft). A fair Marshal should give you some small perk for that increased vulnerability.
Example 1: You build a plasma rifle (bolt) with an all-conditions sight (darksight). If the sight is removable then all is well; the sight is useful as a weapon sight or as a "night scope" for personal use. If the sight is integrated into the weapon then there should be some kind of increased benefit - possibly a small monitor screen (so multiple people can use it), the effects of a raise on any success, or maybe the plasma gun is more powerful as a "side effect" of a skillful installation (i.e. the Marshal didn't want to upgrade the sight so he made the bolt effect more powerful).
Example 2: Power armor that boosts the wearer's strength and uses armor plating to protect him from harm (boost strength and armor). The boost/lower is limited to increasing Strength, so the Marshal lets it boost 2 steps as long as it works. The armor plating is really bulky (worsens encumbrance by -1) but very protective (+4 armor) and reliable (only malfunctions on Soak rolls that are Snake Eyes; basically like the DL:R S&R vests).
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rungok
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if the combo device is destroyed, I'd have to repair it as two seperate power devices, not one?
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rungok wrote:
So if the combo device is destroyed, I'd have to repair it as two seperate power devices, not one?

Maybe. Combined devices are a Marshal call, since they're a Trapping effect, and the mechanical effects of trappings have to be worked out with the GM (see the Trappings section in the Core Rules).
Probably you'd need to get each "system" (read as: power) repaired before you could use that feature, but you shouldn't need to get them all working to use a single power.
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Sonicfox
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't gotten too far through the PDF's for HOE reloaded and deluxe yet.
But My hangup for junkers would be the limited functionality of creating devices for others.

For example I liked making items to benefit towns. Using the temperature power I sold(or gave depending on the need) Water condensers, or giving a poor town enough of a way to defend themselves against a group of black-hats. (or ok, selling 0 drain flashgordon pistols. or flashlights, or other small items designed to help build some money. All they'd have to do would be to plug in some spirit batteries.)

Hmm, all they'd really need is some form of recharge ability...even if it is based off of ghostrock burning or something...the size is fine really....Marshals choice on that one I suppose.

Now reading through the abilitys in deluxe, I'd assume something similar would be the elemental manipulation (water) ability. But useing the tech spirit rules under the gadgetering rules would mean it would only have a finite set of uses before it fizzled out. at character creation with 10 power points, it would cost 5 scrap to make a 5 power point device that (from how i read it)would only be able to make 5 pints of water before it gave up the ghost so to speak. So much for helping out a town. All that is, is a single shot of water production for 1 person for 1 day. (though admittedly, for a 1 shot item, enough water for 1 day isn't BAD.)
For something permanent, the junker would have to sacrifice a full power for something that could recharge.

Secondly, and less "But this doesn't taste like Original coke at ALL", If those 5 bits of scrap don't happen to be destroyed in the use of the limited power (A grenade made from blast comes to mind.) Would you be able to remake the power from the scrap used in the first casting of the power? Or would that scrap turn to dust or something when the tech spirit lost power and left?

Lastly. What size would something using 5 scrap be? or does size rely more on trapping than anything else?
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rungok
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sonicfox wrote:
I haven't gotten too far through the PDF's for HOE reloaded and deluxe yet.
But My hangup for junkers would be the limited functionality of creating devices for others.

For example I liked making items to benefit towns. Using the temperature power I sold(or gave depending on the need) Water condensers, or giving a poor town enough of a way to defend themselves against a group of black-hats. (or ok, selling 0 drain flashgordon pistols. or flashlights, or other small items designed to help build some money. All they'd have to do would be to plug in some spirit batteries.)


This is something I liked doing too. Found a settlement (out of a prison at that) that had been getting pounded hard by radiation storms, built them a rad shield generator in the center of town Had been fidgeted into working with 0 drain and 19 stability. 9 times out of 10, the thing would run all night long and shield their town from the storms. I was fine with this; I got an almost completely intact car out of the deal. That was a lot of structural savage and I could use what I had to get it moving, which meant it was very valuable with a little conversion work for a spook juice engine.
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Thunderforge
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a Marshal, I would totally allow a Mad Scientist to rig up items to benefit towns, within reason. I've always let my Arcane Background characters use just their raw spellcasting skill for "cantrips" without the need for any powers. Building a water condenser to help a struggling town definitely seems like the equivalent of a cantrip to me and I'd definitely let a Junker make it in exchange for some components (granted, it may not be as reliable as if it were new, but it's a start).

I'd probably draw the line at military defense and just use the rules for Sharing Items for anything like that. This avoids the "gatling pistols for everyone!" problem that Classic had with Mad Scientists and Junkers (although admittedly it was fun).
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rungok
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh!

I remembered my question!

I read through gadgeteer (and junker's improved gadgeteer) and it says I can make up to half my spirit die in temporary gadgets per day, but it takes salvage to do so, and it only has half my charges. (Do I round up or down for that when I have 15 pp?)

Does that mean I can only ever have 5 'gizmos' like ever? or I can make a blaster with 5 charges, shoot 3 of them, put it on my belt, and a few days later when I get into another battle pull it back out and shoot off the last two? Can I just (limited by salvage pieces of course) sit down over a few days and construct a bunch of 'I think these will be needed in this area' gadgets as expendables? If I can't and somehow these things just... stop working at the end of the day, then I would be kinda disappointed since I'm using a resource that is rather limited by our ability to find junk, which can range from frikkin easy to damn near impossibru. The other thought that crossed my mind was that no matter if you keep the item or not, you can only ever have half your spirit die at a time that work. But I thought that if that was the case it could have been better worded. Like "You can only attract up to half your spirit die in extra tech spirits to power gadgeteer gizmos. If they're occupying a thing, then you can't make any more." or something.

I dunno. All I know is that I will eventually come up to this, where I make a neat Environmental protection gizmo and not need to use all of it one day and then have to like soon as I wake up the next. Or I'll have said blaster with leftover charges that I want to save for a pinch.
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Sonicfox
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When i was reading through Gadgeteer (and junker version) I didn't see anything that said you had to use it when you made it, just that it never recharges.

BUT I did see where It said that you could only make 1/2 your spirit type per GAME session, not day. So that should keep you from spamming it too horribly.
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rungok
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha! Misread.

Well in that case, all I need to know is do I round up or down when dividing my PP?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rungok wrote:
Aha! Misread.

Well in that case, all I need to know is do I round up or down when dividing my PP?


The general rule of thumb (for any game system I've read, not just DL) is usually "round down".
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rungok
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok that makes sense.
Since I want my core (and therefore reuseable) powers to be pretty neat, how do you suppose i could go about having my cyber horse, that i can switch into battle mode and it becomes (transforms into) a combat power armor for me?

The horse part's been established; speed power with horse trapping, but what powers do you suppose would be needed besides armor and the fact that it would be one device for all of them?
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sonicfox wrote:
For example I liked making items to benefit towns. Using the temperature power I sold(or gave depending on the need) Water condensers, or giving a poor town enough of a way to defend themselves against a group of black-hats. (or ok, selling 0 drain flashgordon pistols. or flashlights, or other small items designed to help build some money. All they'd have to do would be to plug in some spirit batteries.)

You have two obvious ways to do this in Reloaded.
First, build real machines. Not Junker magic that wears out, but actual water purifiers, weapons, and so forth (though some Gadgeteer blast landmines would slow down a lot of black hats). Mr. Green Junkers tend to have a great Repair skill, along with good Notice (for scavenging parts) and relevant Knowledge skills, making them pretty good at building real machines (though they need real parts and more time). This kind of expertise should make the Junker very popular in town.
Second, spend advances to take the same power over and over again as you build and hand out permanent gadgets. That's incredibly generous, but also a serious investment by the character. Neutral
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rungok wrote:
how do you suppose i could go about having my cyber horse, that i can switch into battle mode and it becomes (transforms into) a combat power armor for me?

What do you want it to do? Mounted weapon systems? Sensors? Jump jets / flight pack? Reflex boosters? Servo motors? Targeting assistance? Magnetic deflection field?
Heck, maybe it's the Growth power instead of Boost Strength and Armor.

Making it all one device will be kind of an issue, one you'll need to talk about with your Marshal. I'd have to give it some thought if I was the GM.

Good luck!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our group has the same issue with junkers as Rungok.

Good ideas here though, but still an issue with power, movement flight etc. gonna run out of juice in a handful of seconds. Pretty useless for a car or a horse.

Right now we are just kind of hand waving alot of stuff. If he could do it in classic he can do it in reloaded. for the generally non combat stuff, so his car is one he built himself and so on.
Or instead of minutes, if he spends hours building a device it uses power each hour instead of each round. for non combat stuff, like locomotion and so on.
Also allow the summon power at higher ranks so the junker can build robots and gun turrets etc.


Will probably end up using the stuff from deadlands reloaded and Smith and Robards for permanent devices for things like cars. Still getting a feel for how it works.

for quick and dirty guns, bombs, chain swords etc. the rules work great if you keep in mind the trappings pretty happy with that.
Its just the more permanent long term things that feel weird right now.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trappings will solve a lot of your issues (but I don't promise that they'll solve everything).

Fuel trapping: This works for flamethrowers, vehicles, and guns that fire bullets. Anything that uses real fuel ignores the normal PP rules - it gains greater endurance and utility for the price of eating up valuable resources (spook juice and bullets).
That covers your cars, helicopters, air planes, cyber horses (feed them spook juice, like a motorcycle), and real guns.

As I mentioned earlier, turret guns would probably be the QUICKNESS power, since the point is to give the Junker more actions - he's got a robot that's shooting while he's taking cover, shooting, doctoring, or crying for his mama.
Androids would probably be the Sidekick edge with a trapping of "Yeah, I built that".
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