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DLR: Wierd Science and Ghostrock problem
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ThatGiantMan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
Remember this, but we still have "energy taken from nowhere" issue, which is unacceptable for scientist, sane or not.


I don't see this as an issue at all.
I believe clockwork has already been mentioned, where the energy comes from winding - ghost steel springs being able to hold a lot more energy than regular steel.
Another possibility would be a ghost steel capacitor attached to a coat with a fine web of ghost steel wire woven through it. As the scientist moves through the earth's magnetic field, it induces tiny currents in the wires, which charge the capacitor (recovering power points). This wouldn't work in reality as the currents generated would be miniscule, but maybe ghost steel has special conductive properties that make this possible.

Either of these suggestions make as much sense to me as a lightning gun having a tiny ghost rock furnace built in (and presumably a tiny steam turbine to generate the electricity).
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wanderingmystic
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plot point books in general don't talk about monetary reimbursements since everything the characters do is in the vein of the good guys righting a wrong not being paid to do so. Now there are a few bounties listed near the back offering around 1000 for the entire party, this will take 1-2 game sessions to complete (these are rare and are exceptions to the rules). On top of that you have to look at travel encounters witch has run my posse around 5pp per encounter per AB. All cost in the maze have skyrocketed so food and lodging are outrageous and will use up most of your cash.

Now you seem to be dead set on requiring your Mad Scientist to use ghost rock for fuel and upkeep of their devices so with that in mind here are some of my suggestions.

You are able to gain your total # of power points per lb of Ghost Rock.
To help offset this cost the Mad Scientist is constantly scrounging, trading, and eeking every bit of power from his devices so he is able to restore 2 pp to every device he has every day. Make it take 2 hours per device to maintain and scrounge for them in order to get the pp.

If the PC has alchemy just treat it as 1 more device.

This shows that he is able to gather some raw material without buying them and to get better efficiency out of his devices (its like driving that extra couple of miles when you know your car is out of gas, or hitting the device to make it work just a bit longer)

This way if the group has significant down time the Mad Scientist can easily refuel his devices with out needing to buy extra ghost rock, and in the field he can get maybe an extra use per day / every other day but if he really wants to be able to refuel during a intense mission he needs to buy Ghost Rock.

There are also rules for Ghost Rock Fever that will affect him if he chooses to travel with ghost rock or be around a lot of it.

This rule will help to prevent your PC from exploiting the Ghost Rock as fuel rule if he has massive amounts of cash and can afford to "reload" his devices several times a day
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatGiantMan wrote:
I believe clockwork has already been mentioned, where the energy comes from winding - ghost steel springs being able to hold a lot more energy than regular steel.
Another possibility would be a ghost steel capacitor attached to a coat with a fine web of ghost steel wire woven through it. As the scientist moves through the earth's magnetic field, it induces tiny currents in the wires, which charge the capacitor (recovering power points). This wouldn't work in reality as the currents generated would be miniscule, but maybe ghost steel has special conductive properties that make this possible.


You use ghostrock twice in this two argments - as ghost steel. As I said - for me the "ghost steel spare parts" are th same using of ghostrock as this burning. Alloy need the ghostrock to be melt with steel, so the costs are the same. So we return to the ghostrockcost thing...

wanderingmystic wrote:
On top of that you have to look at travel encounters witch has run my posse around 5pp per encounter per AB.


So finally we have some solid info - adventure, i.e. 1-2 sessions, are about 4-5 encounters. We know, that after one adventure, character should get advancement. After four, it should be next Rank. So, after about 20 encounters, character should get next Rank.

This rules have idea that Scientist is needing ghostrock, so general statistical one pound of ghostrok per adventure is good in my point of view - they need to look for money, and in time of one advneture they can get more than this. We need 25PP per character on advnetre, and starting character can get 20PP from pound of ghostrock - that means he need to look for more, and enought to solve easier plots with all they got.


wanderingmystic wrote:
All cost in the maze have skyrocketed so food and lodging are outrageous and will use up most of your cash.


And it's correct- it's Hungers Domain, don't it? Other supply's are short, but only ghostrock is cheap. Great, and horrorsque combination.


wanderingmystic wrote:
You are able to gain your total # of power points per lb of Ghost Rock.
To help offset this cost the Mad Scientist is constantly scrounging, trading, and eeking every bit of power from his devices so he is able to restore 2 pp to every device he has every day. Make it take 2 hours per device to maintain and scrounge for them in order to get the pp.

If the PC has alchemy just treat it as 1 more device.

This shows that he is able to gather some raw material without buying them and to get better efficiency out of his devices (its like driving that extra couple of miles when you know your car is out of gas, or hitting the device to make it work just a bit longer)

This way if the group has significant down time the Mad Scientist can easily refuel his devices with out needing to buy extra ghost rock, and in the field he can get maybe an extra use per day / every other day but if he really wants to be able to refuel during a intense mission he needs to buy Ghost Rock.

There are also rules for Ghost Rock Fever that will affect him if he chooses to travel with ghost rock or be around a lot of it.

This rule will help to prevent your PC from exploiting the Ghost Rock as fuel rule if he has massive amounts of cash and can afford to "reload" his devices several times a day


Thank you, great counterbalance rules! And the conclusion that Mad Scientist can got Ghostrock Fever from it, is even more great. Wink
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ThatGiantMan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
You use ghostrock twice in this two argments - as ghost steel. As I said - for me the "ghost steel spare parts" are th same using of ghostrock as this burning. Alloy need the ghostrock to be melt with steel, so the costs are the same. So we return to the ghostrockcost thing...


Where we differ is that I see ghoststeel as something that's created once as part of the gizmo and doesn't need any upkeep... that's purely personal preference though.
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The Stray
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
Currency exchange rate don't have anything to it. I maybe wrong, but from what I saw in couple of adventures, general reward for completion of "job" for posse is about 100$+ each member. So the Mad can afford one pound on adventure basis. The question is isn't it highly to much to cost PP as one pound, contrary to "it's just wrong"...


This isn't about currency rates, though. This is about understanding the financial burden you're imposing on your player. You mention your from Poland, so here's another conversion: Would you, realistically, use a device that only gave you 20 uses (at best) but cost 6,900 Zloty to refuel? Remember that you're requiring refueling for each of the mad scientist's devices, so the price he has to pay to use them at all goes up insanely high unless he only wants one power for the entire game.

Quote:
Answered this argmunt so many times I don't count now in this topic. Read thought my posts to see my resoning on this.


It keeps coming up because you keep ignoring it, and you shouldn't because it's very important to how the game is set up. Infernal Devices and Gizmos are not the same thing at all and shouldn't be held to the same standards.

Quote:
See, I can easily understand that and agree with this. But then we are left with the questions my players asked me: "How much ghostrock use gizmo, if it's fueld by it? And why would any one use ghostrock as fuel then, it it's expensive, when you can use almost no cost equivalents?"


That's why I'd say fuel it by the ounce (which is about 30 grams in Metric). Oil is sold on the world market by the barrel but used by the gallon, so I can easily see Ghost Rock being used the same way. Chop it up into reasonable amounts.

Quote:


Remember this, but we still have "energy taken from nowhere" issue, which is
unacceptable for scientist, sane or not.


Except that the energy is not taken from "nowhere." It's taken from the Hunting Grounds (like every other magic source in Deadlands). Ghost Rock only powers devices that could theoretically work in our world, while gizmos are powered by demons. And even then, Ghost Rock is made from the souls of the dead who passed on to the Hunting Grounds and were then reconstituted into a fuel source by the Reckoners. There is nothing even remotely scientific about Ghost Rock because it's not a natural substance, it's a Green Rock.

Quote:

May think on it. Maybe gives bonus +1 or +2 for actvating devices on ghostrock?


I think it would depend on the power's trapping and have to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps doubling durations of powered devices so activations last longer, or more damage dice or penalties to resist the power if it's an instant effect sort.

Quote:
On this, you must know i'm Pole, so I don't on daily basis use imperial system. So correct my calculation if they are wrong.

I'm more inclined on this, but truly, players would get there lower power then - ounce is 1/12 of pound. That means if made 1 Power Point equivalent of 1 ounce of ghostrock, one pound for 100$ would give 12 PP for player to power it's gizmo. My house rule to use his Max PP as one pound is more favorable then, cause starting character will have 20 at start from one pound, and more from this pound if he will take "Power Points" Edge.

On the other hand, making one ounce as Max PP is too much - theoretically, starting character could buy 40 ounces and that is 800 PP. Even with 5PP cost Powers, that gives us 160 uses, that it's more than enough for whole campaign, not only one adventure! So there we will don't have any real problem with ghostrock in-game.

Looking on this if players buy "one, sacred pound" of ghostrock for 100$, it still gives him 16 ounces, and this is 320 PP. Maybe more managable, but still too much... Confused


1/16th, actually, but yes, still favorable. But the cost is insane.

Theoretically, yes. But characters still need to eat, clothe themselves, shelter themselves, and travel. You're forcing your Mad Scientist characters to do this while imposing a second burden on them of constantly requiring fuel, and he'll need that fuel for each device he builds. Unless your houserule is that he has a single point pool (instead of having a separate pool of points for each power he builds, which is the default), which I may have missed.

As a conversion, 1 Pound is roughly 450 grams, so if you want to make things a bit more easily trackable you could say that a gizmo uses 50 grams for a full 20 point pool, and thus a Pound of Ghost Rock would provide 9 "recharges." Remember that he needs to recharge each device he makes, so this will go more quickly than is apparent.
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Stray wrote:

Except that the energy is not taken from "nowhere." It's taken from the Hunting Grounds (like every other magic source in Deadlands). Ghost Rock only powers devices that could theoretically work in our world, while gizmos are powered by demons. And even then, Ghost Rock is made from the souls of the dead who passed on to the Hunting Grounds and were then reconstituted into a fuel source by the Reckoners. There is nothing even remotely scientific about Ghost Rock because it's not a natural substance, it's a Green Rock


From CHARACTERS POINT OF VIEW, they not taking power from Hunting Grounds - they made or use conviviality power source THEY MINDS KNOW OF - because they are SCIENTISTS, so they base they "belief" in scientific method, not witchcraft of demons land. They just don't use this term and is outside of they understanding.

If most of industry is powered by superfuel as ghostrock, that can give you "all the result you want" - every normal and insane alike Scientist will use it, just like every device nowadays is powered by electricity, and in real XIX century was on coal and steam. Others, that wan't use the ghostrock as fuel, would used it by spare parts, like ghost steel components, overusing themselves in time. ILLOGICAL is to think otherwise. And mad or not, Scientists are creatures of logic.

The Stray wrote:
Theoretically, yes. But characters still need to eat, clothe themselves, shelter themselves, and travel. You're forcing your Mad Scientist characters to do this while imposing a second burden on them of constantly requiring fuel, and he'll need that fuel for each device he builds. Unless your houserule is that he has a single point pool (instead of having a separate pool of points for each power he builds, which is the default), which I may have missed.


I overlooked that each Power is with other device. But yes, I used my house rule, money are spent on ghostrock and spare parts for all devices Power Points, not each of them.

The Stray wrote:

As a conversion, 1 Pound is roughly 450 grams, so if you want to make things a bit more easily trackable you could say that a gizmo uses 50 grams for a full 20 point pool, and thus a Pound of Ghost Rock would provide 9 "recharges." Remember that he needs to recharge each device he makes, so this will go more quickly than is apparent.


Let's even say 10 "recharges", for easier calculations. It's 200 Power Points, that means 100 uses of 2PP Power. Taking rough statistic of wanderingmystic, it's 40 encounters, so 8 adventures. And 8 adventures is whole Flood Plot Point campaign! It is estimination, but one pound of ghostrock is stysfying your need for PP for whole campaign!

Don't you see it's just too large in vain of all setting saying "ghostrock is needed everywhere this days"?
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Matchstickman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
If most of industry is powered by superfuel as ghostrock, that can give you "all the result you want" - every normal and insane alike Scientist will use it, just like every device nowadays is powered by electricity, and in real XIX century was on coal and steam.

Just because "all" devices nowadays use electricity doesn't mean they all get electricity from the same sources; nuclear power and solar power are two very different sources of power, both of which are used to supply us with electricity.

wyrdhamster wrote:
Others, that wan't use the ghostrock as fuel, would used it by spare parts, like ghost steel components, overusing themselves in time. ILLOGICAL is to think otherwise.

So what about a mad scientist gadget ghost steel knife (smite power) that requires no roll to activate, how many uses before the blade wears out? 20PP worth? Is the blade really going to wear out that quickly? Why would you choose a knife that broke after 10 uses and costs over $100 to replace over one that costs $4, can be used and resharpened for years and years? For the extra cutting power it gives you for a couple of uses? I'd be more than happy to take a standard knife and take the extra time to cut something than spend 25 times more on a knife that worked like that.
Also, how does the mad scientist manufacture Ghost Steel to replace the blade while on adventures? Do they need to carry a steel mill with them, at additional expense and weight?

On the other hand is the Ghost Rock system you propose going to be an instant recharge, thus eliminating the "Rapid Recharge" type edges? Because that might be an acceptable trade-off, money cost for an instant recharge whenever you need it (but $100 is still a high price to pay for 20PP).


wyrdhamster wrote:
I overlooked that each Power is with other device. But yes, I used my house rule, money are spent on ghostrock and spare parts for all devices Power Points, not each of them.

So what if I use all the PP in one device and none in the others, do I have to wait for the other devices to use up theirs too to get the most cost efficient use of my ghost rock? Or can I use part of a pound of ghost rock to refuel the empty device and save the rest for later?



wyrdhamster wrote:
Taking rough statistic of wanderingmystic, it's 40 encounters, so 8 adventures. And 8 adventures is whole Flood Plot Point campaign

Except that doesn't account for uses outside of combat, side adventures, losing power points due to power drain, devices not working (e.g. a low roll to activate), loss/theft of your devices, devices exploding and needing repair or any of the other myriad of things that you as the GM can inflict on the party. Not to mention how one group of PCs might have different ideas on how to use their devices from another group of PCs.
(also I disagree with your maths, a travelling encounter and rounding up a crew of hombres are 2 very different encounters, using up very different amounts of PP, one happens on the way and shouldn't take much to overcome and the other is the focus of the adventure and should be significant)

wyrdhamster wrote:
Don't you see it's just too large in vain of all setting saying "ghostrock is needed everywhere this days"?

Except it isn't "needed everywhere", lots of technology in Deadlands uses our conventional tech, it's only used for 'weird tech' (and I can certainly see societies doing the 'hippy thing' and throwing off this new fangled modern technology).
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The Stray
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
From CHARACTERS POINT OF VIEW, they not taking power from Hunting Grounds - they made or use conviviality power source THEY MINDS KNOW OF - because they are SCIENTISTS, so they base they "belief" in scientific method, not witchcraft of demons land. They just don't use this term and is outside of they understanding.

If most of industry is powered by superfuel as ghostrock, that can give you "all the result you want" - every normal and insane alike Scientist will use it, just like every device nowadays is powered by electricity, and in real XIX century was on coal and steam. Others, that wan't use the ghostrock as fuel, would used it by spare parts, like ghost steel components, overusing themselves in time. ILLOGICAL is to think otherwise. And mad or not, Scientists are creatures of logic.


Perpetual Motion. Aether. Phlostigon. Free energy from Earth's gravity well. Tesla towers beaming electricity through the air. All of these things are stuff that has been tried in our own world to generate free or cheap energy with minimal drawbacks outside the mainstream of burning whatever. And because in Deadlands they are ACTUALLY powered by demons, these various crackpot things seem to work for specific individuals. Mad Scientists are, by definition, insane. They work with theories that shouldn't hold up but do to create devices that shouldn't work but do.

These are not scientists...these are people who've convinced themselves they are scientists and have demons whispering to them in their ears while they sleep convincing them they are, indeed geniuses. Circular Logic and Insane Troll Logic are just as valid to these folk as actual real logic. You really should read up on some of the crackpot theories that abound in our world...trust me when I say that Mad Scientists aren't any better about adhering to logic than a normal person, and might, in fact, be more willing to leap to circular logic justifications that fit their worldview rather than sound testable methods.

Quote:
Let's even say 10 "recharges", for easier calculations. It's 200 Power Points, that means 100 uses of 2PP Power. Taking rough statistic of wanderingmystic, it's 40 encounters, so 8 adventures. And 8 adventures is whole Flood Plot Point campaign! It is estimination, but one pound of ghostrock is stysfying your need for PP for whole campaign!

Don't you see it's just too large in vain of all setting saying "ghostrock is needed everywhere this days"?


I do not see the problem with this, except what you're setting up for yourself by adding in the houserule that wasn't there in the original rules. Power Points are, at the end of the day, an abstraction. You're trying to make them concrete when they don't need to be. It's 200 power points overall, but only 20 at a time...unless your house rule eliminates the cooldown period of regaining 1 pp per hour and instantly recharges a power point pool when a new batch of rock is inserted, in which case, hell yes that's broken and a good reason to ditch the whole rule. this whole thing sounds like unnecessary bookkeeping on the player's end and a hassle for you yourself that you just don't need when using the rules as written.

The flood, to take your example, is composed of 8 main plot points, but in between those points are dozens of other adventures. You can't actually complete The Flood without also taking part in The Shan Fan Triad War (three savage tales) and the hunt for the 12 runes of power (another ten or so GM-made adventures), not to mention sidequests, random encounters, showing off, downtime, or the myriad other things characters do with their lives when not on an Adventure.
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Cutter XXIII
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
And 8 adventures is whole Flood Plot Point campaign!

Actually, played as written the Plot Point has 15 adventures, and that's adding no Savage Tales.

Just sayin'.
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geijhan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was looking at my Doomtown cards yesterday and came across following piece of flavour text, uttered by a Collegium member: "Science is not an exact science."

It seemed rather appropriate for this thread. Smile
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jpk
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
From CHARACTERS POINT OF VIEW, they not taking power from Hunting Grounds...

From a character's point of view, they don't have Attributes rated in die types. From a character's point of view, they don't have Power Points. From a character's point of view, they aren't written on paper. From a character's point of view, they aren't fictional.

I would say the character's viewpoints and the rules of the game are separate and distinct.
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iskandar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jpk wrote:
From a character's point of view, they don't have Attributes rated in die types. From a character's point of view, they don't have Power Points. From a character's point of view, they aren't written on paper. From a character's point of view, they aren't fictional.


these are mad scientists we are talking about, I would not be surprised if they're are a few who believe they are fictional characters.

New Dementia- Believes he is caught in some strange collaborative fiction game.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iskandar wrote:
these are mad scientists we are talking about, I would not be surprised if they're are a few who believe they are fictional characters.

New Dementia- Believes he is caught in some strange collaborative fiction game.


IIRC that was actually suggested as a possible dementia in the Classic rules.
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