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Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
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islan
Heroic
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 1084
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 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Bernd wrote: | | Revolver: Weapon can fire in Single Shot mode and Rapid Attack (fanning the hammer). |
And how does the Revolver get up to 6 Shooting dice, again? Rapid Attack would just get it up to three without combining it with something else, right? |
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grimmshade
Seasoned
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| islan wrote: | | Bernd wrote: | | Revolver: Weapon can fire in Single Shot mode and Rapid Attack (fanning the hammer). |
And how does the Revolver get up to 6 Shooting dice, again? Rapid Attack would just get it up to three without combining it with something else, right? |
3 for Melee, up to 6 for ranged. |
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Bernd
Seasoned
Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| grimmshade wrote: | | islan wrote: | | Bernd wrote: | | Revolver: Weapon can fire in Single Shot mode and Rapid Attack (fanning the hammer). |
And how does the Revolver get up to 6 Shooting dice, again? Rapid Attack would just get it up to three without combining it with something else, right? |
3 for Melee, up to 6 for ranged. |
Correct. |
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Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16163
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Lord Lance wrote: | | Harlan wrote: | | Like Jeff, I wish the SWD edition would simply note the available attack-options next to each ranged weapon. It's mentioned in the Errata-thread, as far as I remember. |
[+1]
You should keep the things as simple as possible, so I'd love a change too, in the original weapons notes.
"Auto" can stand as reminder for full-auto, then you could have "Single", "Semi-Auto", "3RB", "Double Barrel", "Shotgun", "Revolver" etc. |
Auto was never a reminder for full-auto. That was a mistake that just happened in Deluxe. I'm sorry for it, but it happens.
That said, I can understand the desire for a terminology change, but we felt maintaining compatibility with all the weapons published by us or the licensees in various books over the past years just slightly edged it out for precedence.
Changing a rule is not nearly as confusing as keeping a rule and just changing a name or game term connected to it.
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Bernd
Seasoned
Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | Lord Lance wrote: | | Harlan wrote: | | Like Jeff, I wish the SWD edition would simply note the available attack-options next to each ranged weapon. It's mentioned in the Errata-thread, as far as I remember. |
[+1]
You should keep the things as simple as possible, so I'd love a change too, in the original weapons notes.
"Auto" can stand as reminder for full-auto, then you could have "Single", "Semi-Auto", "3RB", "Double Barrel", "Shotgun", "Revolver" etc. |
Auto was never a reminder for full-auto. That was a mistake that just happened in Deluxe. I'm sorry for it, but it happens.
That said, I can understand the desire for a terminology change, but we felt maintaining compatibility with all the weapons published by us or the licensees in various books over the past years just slightly edged it out for precedence.
Changing a rule is not nearly as confusing as keeping a rule and just changing a name or game term connected to it. |
I would like to suggest a solution that doesn't change the rules nor the terminology, as opposed to my suggestion above:
In the Gear chapter (page 48) change the description for Auto so that it does not only say that the weapon "may fire in (automatic) single shot mode" but also that this is (rules wise) the same as Semi-Auto. There you can write that using a weapon this way does only consume one round and also ignores the recoil penalty of -2. You could even clarify the difference between Automatic weapons and Full-Auto weapons, rules wise (and maybe even real world wise).
On the next page under Rate of Fire, it implies that all weapons can fire single shots, which is plain wrong if I understood the rules correctly. A weapon with a RoF of 3 and no Auto (nor other notes), like the Gatling Gun, can only fire in Full-Auto mode, so even when using only one die, it still consumes 3 bullets and and is penalized by recoil (-2). So rephrase the sentences: "Unless a weapon says otherwise, the user can fire up to the weapon's Rate of Fire (rather than its full Rate of Fire). If a single shot is taken, it uses a single round of ammunition and does not incur any recoil penalties." Here you could clarify that even a weapon with a RoF of 2+ can use less shots, but still uses the full-auto rules even when only using one shot (and therefore still uses at least a number of bullets that equals the used dice x RoF and incurs the recoil penalty).
The same goes for page 71, under Automatic Fire: There it says: "Most automatic weapons can be set to fire full-auto or single shot. Unless a weapons says otherwise, you can fire a single shot (and also ignore the automatic fire penalty of -2)." I think it's possible to just delete this sentence, if you re-write the Auto description. Here again you could clarify that even a weapon with a RoF of 2+ can use less shots, but still uses the full-auto rules even when only using one shot (and therefore still uses at least a number of bullets that equals the used dice x RoF and incurs the recoil penalty).
And to make it complete, add Auto weapons to the list of weapons that can use Rapid Attacks under the description of Rapid Attacks on page 75, so that it says: "Ranged attackers with a (semi-)automatic weapon or revolver may fire..."
I think if these changes were made, most of the confusion should be gone. |
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grimmshade
Seasoned
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't think I was confused about any of this till I read this thread. 
If I print out Jeff's post, is that summary 100% correct & I'm good to go? |
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Timon
Heroic
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 1076
Location: Haarlem in the Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Basically Grimm, you cannot 3RB with a double-barrelled shotgun
you cannot wild attack with anything you can shoot
and you cannot rock and roll with an Axe.
and Simplicity has now left the building 
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FoxBlue
Seasoned
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 453
Location: Fort Collins
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not a weapon nut, or at least wasn't until after I started playing SW... but I never really had any trouble understanding any of this and it still makes sense to me...
Rapid attack applies:
melee weapons (up to 3 attacks)
Semi Auto guns (up to 6 shots limited by remaining ammo)
Double action Revolvers (as semi auto
Single action revolvers (as semi auto and DA revolvers but it gets a cooler name)
RoF 2+ weapons with the Auto note (can fire as semi and use the same rules)
Does not apply:
RoF 2+ weapons without the Auto note
Single shot fire arms or non-fire arm ranged weapons.
Notes and house rules:
I refer to ranged rapid attacks as rapid fire and melee rapid attacks simply as rapid attacks. I think this helps make it clearer which we are referring to.
A don't allow DA revolvers to rapid fire, this is a leftover from Deadlands and I like it the way it is.
I don't think rapid fire should incur a parry penalty, instead I'd say it requires two hands which would make the unarmed defender rule always apply when using it.
I like rapid attacks incurring a -2 to parry, I was planning on house ruling that in, but now it seems I don't have too. |
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Lord Lance
Heroic
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1406
Location: Vicenza, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: |
Auto was never a reminder for full-auto. |
I know, I know, I was proposing to use "Auto" for full-auto (very easy to remember), and other terms as I wrote in the last post.
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reinar
Novice
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: question about combining a few rules? |
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can double tap or 3 round burst be combined when doing a called shot (to the head or limb)?
i.e. can i get the +2 to hit and damage bonus from a 3 round burst, when also taking the -4 to hit, +4 damage bonus for called shot to the head? |
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jpk
Legendary
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 2156
Location: Tazewell, East Tennessee, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: question about combining a few rules? |
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| reinar wrote: | can double tap or 3 round burst be combined when doing a called shot (to the head or limb)?
i.e. can i get the +2 to hit and damage bonus from a 3 round burst, when also taking the -4 to hit, +4 damage bonus for called shot to the head? |
Yep. |
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reinar
Novice
Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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any specific rules or errata links to help us? we couldnt find it anywhere to support or deny.
thanks |
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jpk
Legendary
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 2156
Location: Tazewell, East Tennessee, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I can't channel Clint all that well, but here goes.
In general, Savage Worlds combat modifiers just stack up unless there's a reason they wouldn't.
If you end up firing a 3-round burst (+2 to Shooting, +2 damage) at someone's head (-4 to hit, +4 damage) in dim lighting (-1 to hit) from an unstable platform (-2 to hit) with the drop (+4 to hit, +4 damage) at medium range (-2 to hit) with your off hand (-2 to hit) when you've been dealt a Joker (+2 to Attribute checks, +2 to damage), you'd be attacking at (if I've done the math right) an overall -3 to hit (+2-4-1-2+4-2-2+2) and +12 (+2+4+4+2) damage. Since you had a Joker, if you've got the Dead Shot Edge, you'd get to double your final damage, too. |
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Jonah Hex
Veteran
Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 578
Location: Saskatoon, SK
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Jeff Carlsen wrote: |
Anyway, at one point I started a writeup about firearms and their differences, but never finished it. I'm thinking that I should do so. A roleplayer's guide to firearms. |
For anyone still interested and looking for a gamer's primer that is still in print, I strongly recommend the following:
For an in-depth discussion on the history and tech of guns (and many other things):
GURPS High Tech 4e
and for a discussion focussed more on the practice of actually shooting (stuff like the difference between target and combat shooting, different shooting styles, etc.):
GURPS Tactical Shooting
This is admittedly "crunchier" and has less theory for people not playing gurps, it still has some interesting stuff.
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Running DnD 4e War of the Burning Sky
Running Rippers
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