Username:    Password:      Remember me       
Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
Discussion Forum for PEG/GWG
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Ideas from Gumshoe

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW Home-brew Settings & Conversions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Bloodwork
Seasoned


Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Ideas from Gumshoe Reply with quote

Iíve been off the forums for some time so apologies if this has already been discussed.

I really like playing/running investigative games so I checked out the Gumshoe system and while I donít think Iíll adopt it, it has some really great ideas that I think would work in Savage Worlds.

1. Investigative play: the Gumshoe system makes sure that players always have the necessary clue(s) to get them from this scene to the next. This keeps the game moving even in the case of failed roll. This translates to SW by interpreting the results of rolls differently. You roll your Knowledge, Investigation, Notice, etc. against the usual difficulty (4 plus or minus modifiers). Failure means you got the bare minimum clue, any raises means you get extra information or possibly an advantage in a later confrontation. This doesn't even require any conversion, just changing how you interpret the results of rolls.

2. Player-facing tests: this changes some opposed rolls to regular Trait Tests. For example, when noticing an NPC, the player rolls Notice. When hiding from an NPC, the player rolls Stealth. The target number is the standard 4 plus or minus any modifiers as usual. This speeds things up and actually falls more in line with other SW rules such as combat (fighting vs. parry). Obviously there are going to be times when an opposed roll with a wild card is more dramatic (like when wrestling over the same artefact).

If you wanted to take it further, you could give NPCs a ďSmarts RatingĒ which just represents the TN to beat them in a Smarts-related test. For example, if an NPC with Smarts 4 uses a Smarts Trick, the player would make a Smarts test against TN 4, and if the player attacked the NPC with a taunt, he rolls Taunt against a 4. This would speed things up a bit and combat already uses this system for Fighting vs. Parry and Shooting vs. TN 4. NPCs would still need combat skills for combat because they are not opposed rolls.

Anyways, just some thoughts.
_________________
"I was expecting someone a little more heroic."

"Heroism costs extra."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kronovan
Veteran


Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Posts: 729

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Ideas from Gumshoe Reply with quote

Bloodwork wrote:
1. Investigative play: the Gumshoe system makes sure that players always have the necessary clue(s) to get them from this scene to the next. This keeps the game moving even in the case of failed roll. This translates to SW by interpreting the results of rolls differently. You roll your Knowledge, Investigation, Notice, etc. against the usual difficulty (4 plus or minus modifiers). Failure means you got the bare minimum clue, any raises means you get extra information or possibly an advantage in a later confrontation. This doesn't even require any conversion, just changing how you interpret the results of rolls.

I've house ruled something similar in a Super Powers and a 1-page Horror adventure and found it worked perfectly fine. In my houserule though a 1 means being truly stumped and the PC(s) need to try some alternative to arrive at a clue.

Quote:
2. Player-facing tests: this changes some opposed rolls to regular Trait Tests. For example, when noticing an NPC, the player rolls Notice. When hiding from an NPC, the player rolls Stealth. The target number is the standard 4 plus or minus any modifiers as usual. This speeds things up and actually falls more in line with other SW rules such as combat (fighting vs. parry). Obviously there are going to be times when an opposed roll with a wild card is more dramatic (like when wrestling over the same artefact).

I can't say I care too much for this idea, as IMO it takes away some of the uniqueness of NPCs which is provided by their varying dice levels in such skills. Although it does add a bit in terms of 'Fast & Furious', I also think it detracts a bit from the 'Fun' by removing the dramatic and unpredictable nature of oppositional rolls.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steelbrok
Veteran


Joined: 07 Aug 2005
Posts: 850
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have Ashen Stars and was impressed by a lot of the Gumshoe system. The idea that investigative skills automatically succeed (or else the adventure is derailed) seems like a good one.

I wonder whether having a failure or critical could mean that a complication arises? So if my PI character fails his Notice roll to find the incriminating letter he gets the letter (and hence the clue to keep the plot moving) but either forgets to take it with him ( no proof!) or maybe annoys the homeowner enough that they call the police (or the mob or...)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Enno
Veteran


Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Ulm, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. As all characters are investigators, finding obvious clues is automatic or at least a Common Knowledge roll. Knowledge, Investigation, Notice etc are only used when looking for something special or not that obvious, like sifting through a long and boring list of bank accounts or telephone numbers.

No reinterpretation needed...

2. You can't compare searching for a hidden person to a combat scene, because the former is only rolled once in an encounter, and not over a multiple rounds with changing opponents.

FMPOV it would be VERY unfair to the master thief who trained his stealth skill for half his life. And i doubt, that it has a real impact on game time.

Another point is that you promote stat minmaxing. A guy with a d4 in smarts or agility rarely has a chance to succeed against an attacker with a d8 or higher in his trait. Test of Will and Tricks live by being unpredictable to a greater extent...

To sum it up, nice idea but your "problems" are already solved by the current core rules and some thinking. Wink
_________________
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
J Gregory
Seasoned


Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Posts: 107
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that it took me a while to get my head around, but that I ended up really digging, is the way that Trail of Cthulhu separates Stability and Sanity into different tracks in order to represent both the impact of sudden shocks and the long slide into madness. I've always wanted to try running a Savage Cthulhu game like this, using a variant of the Realms of Cthulhu Madness system for Stabililty alongside the Horror Companion Sanity system for longer term effects.
_________________
Voodoo Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Dread Polack
Veteran


Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 509
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Investigative play: I like this, personally, and should probably be the way it works in all RPGs. Most good, experienced GMs already do it this way, I've found. I try to do it this way, myself. Basically, I always give them the bare minimum info for what will take them to the next "node". I give them a roll of some kind, modified by how clever and creative they are being. Importantly- it's not based on how close to my idea they are. Just because they didn't where I thought they would doesn't mean they shouldn't find it. If they have a creative idea, then put the clue there, and modify the roll accordingly.

2. Player-facing tests: Having read a bit about how the SW folks decided whether to roll vs. a secondary attribute such as Parry or Toughness, as opposed to opposed rolls (apprently, in early versions of the game, people made opposed Fighting rolls to hit, and Damage vs. toughness for damage), it entirely came down to fast vs. fun. They decided to roll vs. Parry and Toughness mainly because so many rolls were being made in combat. From what I've heard Clint and others say- they don't recommend creating other static TN attributes, but depending on how your game works, this might make some sense. Some games have a lot of opposed rolls involving Spirit. In those cases, some players have created a Willpower attribute (2 + Spirit/2). In some games, they use Dodge (2+ Agility/2) for various purposes.

It really depends, I think, on how many of these rolls are being made, and how predictable you want it to be. Making the TN static takes away a roll, which is good sometimes, but makes it less fun sometimes. Also, if the difference matters, then realize that the target will never roll a 1 or a 50, it will always be the static number. This takes away the extremes that a lot of people love about SW. Just keep that in mind when making your decision.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
ogbendog
Legendary


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 2270

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a thread once on investigation, and they recommended having 3 ways of getting from point A to point B.

For example, suppose the investigation is a missing person. She was kidnapped by vampires.

1 - investigation of her room and PC will find searches on vampires, dried garlic, etc.
2 - talking to her boyfriend, he'll have a recent photo of her in a turtleneck on a hot day, and him mentioning that she seemed weak and listless
3 - A vampire minion follows the investigators; he might be captured and interrogated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bloodwork
Seasoned


Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dread Polack wrote:

2. Player-facing tests: Having read a bit about how the SW folks decided whether to roll vs. a secondary attribute such as Parry or Toughness, as opposed to opposed rolls (apprently, in early versions of the game, people made opposed Fighting rolls to hit, and Damage vs. toughness for damage), it entirely came down to fast vs. fun. They decided to roll vs. Parry and Toughness mainly because so many rolls were being made in combat. From what I've heard Clint and others say- they don't recommend creating other static TN attributes, but depending on how your game works, this might make some sense. Some games have a lot of opposed rolls involving Spirit. In those cases, some players have created a Willpower attribute (2 + Spirit/2). In some games, they use Dodge (2+ Agility/2) for various purposes.

It really depends, I think, on how many of these rolls are being made, and how predictable you want it to be. Making the TN static takes away a roll, which is good sometimes, but makes it less fun sometimes. Also, if the difference matters, then realize that the target will never roll a 1 or a 50, it will always be the static number. This takes away the extremes that a lot of people love about SW. Just keep that in mind when making your decision.


Some good points, I think I'll leave combat well alone. And now that I look closer, Stealth already uses a TN until the guards become Active.
_________________
"I was expecting someone a little more heroic."

"Heroism costs extra."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW Home-brew Settings & Conversions All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum