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Edges From Other Settings

 
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Willis
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Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Edges From Other Settings Reply with quote

Just curious how you guys handle this. I have a player that wants to play a Spanish noble making his way through the west. He's a florentine rapier fighter and wants to take a fencing school from Pirates of the Spanish Main. It would net him a +1 to parry while wielding two weapons.

Would you guys allow it?
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Cutter XXIII
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Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 2864
Location: I dwell in the Village of Rock, MD

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only allow Deadlands Setting Rules in my Deadlands games.

Not that there's anything hugely unbalancing about this one, but allowing it is going to open a huge can of worms for you. Next they'll want to use the Super Powers Companion. Wink
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Clint
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 17703

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Edges From Other Settings Reply with quote

Willis wrote:
Just curious how you guys handle this. I have a player that wants to play a Spanish noble making his way through the west. He's a florentine rapier fighter and wants to take a fencing school from Pirates of the Spanish Main. It would net him a +1 to parry while wielding two weapons.

Would you guys allow it?


Depends. Is that all he's actually going to get from it?

Because that's not exactly how it works in that setting.

First the bonus actually applies if the character is using a sword and cloak too, but it also only applies to a single foe using a single weapon.

Second, the academy provides access to the Wall of Steel Edge at Seasoned instead of Veteran (actually a waste in Deadlands since Martial Arts provides the same effect "cheaper" and earlier).

Third, the academy provides immunity to First Strike/Improved First Strike when the character reaches Legendary Rank. That's like getting one or two additional Edges there.

Fourthly, just being part of any academy grants a +2 to Common Knowledge with certain subjects, the ability to stay at an academy location for up to a month, and the ability to call on fellow members once per year as the Connections Edge or granting a +2 bonus if the character has that Edge.

Lastly, this specific academy is a private one, which in the PotSM setting costs the character $500 per year to remain a member. The Edge only pays for the first year.

So is the player expecting all that, or do they just want a +1 to Parry when using two weapons? It's a pretty big difference.
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vaganardi
Novice


Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never tell my players that they can take what they want from any suppliment. That will only cause. The way I handle it is "ask me, I'll take a look at the edge and decide if I will allow it, no promises.

Also I do not allow edges from books I do not have. The Pinnacle and TAG books are quite good (and balanced) the same can't be said about others I've seen.

When asked, look at the edge, can it be done with an existing edge, then there is no need. Also keep in mind stacking of bonuses, this can lead to some pretty nasty combos when you pull edges from outside a setting.

Example, The edge your player is asking for, plus fighting 12, plus acrobatic, plus block, plus improved block can lead to a parry of 12.

In the end, you know your game and your players, make your choice based on fun for everyone (including you, the GM.)
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Edgeworth
Seasoned


Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 190
Location: Kouvola, Finland

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cutter XXIII wrote:
I only allow Deadlands Setting Rules in my Deadlands games.


I'm usually running games with this in mind. The way I see it, when playing a game, the character consept can be out-of-place and special compared to the usual PCs, but he/she must still be within the same world. In simpler terms: A character made for a setting must be made within the setting's rules.

In a Deadlands game, it might be reasonable to let that veteran soldier take those Edges from Weird Wars, but Deadlands is a Western and not a squad-based war game. It might seem fitting for the character consept to let that Spanish Noble take those Edges which makes him thriump in close combat, but Deadlands isn't a sword-and-sorcery game.

When letting players take rules from other settings, the most important thing to check is that it fits the game. Fitting in the character consept comes second. When talking about Deadlands, keep in mind that it was the Peacemaker which tamed the West, not swords and shields Wink

Just my 1,5 pennies.
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StJason
Novice


Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 26
Location: Under the sea (bubble)

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Edges From Other Settings Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Willis wrote:
Just curious how you guys handle this. I have a player that wants to play a Spanish noble making his way through the west. He's a florentine rapier fighter and wants to take a fencing school from Pirates of the Spanish Main. It would net him a +1 to parry while wielding two weapons.

Would you guys allow it?


Ha. I think I'm the person being discussed here. Laughing

To be fair, I asked permission first, and cut & pasted the description from the book. When he expressed concern, I asked what issues he had with it, perfectly willing to take a nerf or to talk over any issues.
...To be honest, I think that it's actually less powerful then even the plain old Martial Arts edge from DL. As a player and occasional DM, I'd be real hesitant to take something to 'game the system', but there is no way the forum could know this.

Clint wrote:
Depends. Is that all he's actually going to get from it?

Because that's not exactly how it works in that setting.

First the bonus actually applies if the character is using a sword and cloak too, but it also only applies to a single foe using a single weapon.

...much like the Florentine edge.
(Can't really see using it with a sword and cloak in Deadlands...)

Clint wrote:
Second, the academy provides access to the Wall of Steel Edge at Seasoned instead of Veteran (actually a waste in Deadlands since Martial Arts provides the same effect "cheaper" and earlier).

Yup. So basically a non-issue. Again, the plain old Martial Arts edge is actually more powerful for fighting then this.

Clint wrote:
Third, the academy provides immunity to First Strike/Improved First Strike when the character reaches Legendary Rank. That's like getting one or two additional Edges there.

...IF you get to Legendary. Also, by the time you do, being able to ignore first strike/improved is not that major of an ability...

Clint wrote:
Fourthly, just being part of any academy grants a +2 to Common Knowledge with certain subjects, the ability to stay at an academy location for up to a month, and the ability to call on fellow members once per year as the Connections Edge or granting a +2 bonus if the character has that Edge.

+2 on geometry, mathematics, anatomy and philosophy (and fencing I suppose, though that isn't specifically stated). As the academy is in the Caribbean, while the adventure is taking place in California, calling upon members or staying there for a month is not much of an advantage.

Clint wrote:
Lastly, this specific academy is a private one, which in the PotSM setting costs the character $500 per year to remain a member. The Edge only pays for the first year.

...as he is a Noble too, the money shouldn't be an issue. Still, having a large bill the next time he swings through the area could be a problem.

Clint wrote:
So is the player expecting all that, or do they just want a +1 to Parry when using two weapons? It's a pretty big difference.

Yup. Went into it with eyes wide open. I thought it was a colorful touch for the character rather then saying "I'm taking "Advanced Martial Arts", except I'm calling it Academia de Hierro instead." I felt it to be good for the character, perhaps a bit anachronistic, but hardly breaking the fluff of the setting (I'm assuming there was a 1640's in the Deadlands universe, that Columbus still 'discovered' America, that it set off a resource rush with the powers of the time, that colonies were set up in the Caribbean, and somewhere in all that, two Spanish brothers set up de Hierro...).

...that is, assuming that I'm the one that I'm the one being talked about. Very Happy
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Snate56
Legendary


Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 4101
Location: Monroe, Washington

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinda like being Zorro.
Actually, I have no problem with this. After all, he is bringing a knife to a gunfight...




SteveN
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ValhallaGH
Legendary


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 6193

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snate56 wrote:
Actually, I have no problem with this. After all, he is bringing a knife to a gunfight...

Those poor, poor gun-toting fools. Sad

I have yet to see a gunman win a knife fight in Deadlands.
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Clint
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 17703

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Edges From Other Settings Reply with quote

StJason wrote:
Clint wrote:
Depends. Is that all he's actually going to get from it?

Because that's not exactly how it works in that setting.

First the bonus actually applies if the character is using a sword and cloak too, but it also only applies to a single foe using a single weapon.

...much like the Florentine edge.
(Can't really see using it with a sword and cloak in Deadlands...)


Similar to Florentine, but the Parry bonus only applies against a single foe. Whereas the Fighting bonus from Florentine can be used with multiple attacks.

StJason wrote:
Clint wrote:
Second, the academy provides access to the Wall of Steel Edge at Seasoned instead of Veteran (actually a waste in Deadlands since Martial Arts provides the same effect "cheaper" and earlier).

Yup. So basically a non-issue. Again, the plain old Martial Arts edge is actually more powerful for fighting then this.


Yes, and fencing is a "martial art" so no reason not to just take it.

StJason wrote:
Clint wrote:
Third, the academy provides immunity to First Strike/Improved First Strike when the character reaches Legendary Rank. That's like getting one or two additional Edges there.

...IF you get to Legendary. Also, by the time you do, being able to ignore first strike/improved is not that major of an ability...


Having played a character up to 200 XPs in a campaign, I'd have to flat out disagree with that statement.

That said, if you (or whomever the player is) doesn't feel it's an important effect of the school, then there's no reason not to simply drop it.

StJason wrote:
Clint wrote:
Fourthly, just being part of any academy grants a +2 to Common Knowledge with certain subjects, the ability to stay at an academy location for up to a month, and the ability to call on fellow members once per year as the Connections Edge or granting a +2 bonus if the character has that Edge.

+2 on geometry, mathematics, anatomy and philosophy (and fencing I suppose, though that isn't specifically stated). As the academy is in the Caribbean, while the adventure is taking place in California, calling upon members or staying there for a month is not much of an advantage.


Again, if it's not going to affect the game, then it shouldn't be a problem to drop the effect entirely.

And as far as the Common Knowledge rolls go, note also that the book says, "Characters neednít buy these skills as Knowledges."

This isn't simply a bonus to expected Common Knowledge rolls; it effectively allows the character to use his Smarts as his Skill die and get a +2 bonus on top of that. Now, if the GM says every player can roll Common Knowledge for those areas, that's a bit different, but if anyone else has to pay Skill Points to get those, it's a huge difference.

StJason wrote:
Clint wrote:
Lastly, this specific academy is a private one, which in the PotSM setting costs the character $500 per year to remain a member. The Edge only pays for the first year.

...as he is a Noble too, the money shouldn't be an issue. Still, having a large bill the next time he swings through the area could be a problem.


So, again, if it's not really going to come up in game, this is a null effect. The character isn't even going out of his way to pay his dues on time; he just expects to have a larger bill when (or if) he ever goes back to the area. By the rules, he would have been kicked out for nonpayment and have to go through the process of being re-accepted. But again, a null issue since none of the paid benefits apply anyway.

StJason wrote:
Clint wrote:
So is the player expecting all that, or do they just want a +1 to Parry when using two weapons? It's a pretty big difference.

Yup. Went into it with eyes wide open. I thought it was a colorful touch for the character rather then saying "I'm taking "Advanced Martial Arts", except I'm calling it Academia de Hierro instead." I felt it to be good for the character, perhaps a bit anachronistic, but hardly breaking the fluff of the setting (I'm assuming there was a 1640's in the Deadlands universe, that Columbus still 'discovered' America, that it set off a resource rush with the powers of the time, that colonies were set up in the Caribbean, and somewhere in all that, two Spanish brothers set up de Hierro...)


...and that fencing academy would still be around over 200 years later?

That last one is the biggest assumption, and really none of the historical stuff is the issue. It's game balance.

Rules are not inherently balanced between settings. They might be, but they are not designed that way. This is one of the cases where there is a clear difference in balance. Heck, the whole point above on how Martial Arts is easier to get than Wall of Steel clearly demonstrates a different concept on the balance of melee combat in the settings.

The fencing academy has weaker effects in some places, much more powerful effects in others, and the overall issue that some of the effects just won't come up.

Ultimately, I think it'd be easier, more balanced, and preferable to just make a new Edge based off one from DL or more likely, the core rules. For example...

Professional Edge
Fencing Academy Student
Requirements: Novice, Fighting d8+, Smarts d6+

This character has trained in one of the rare fencing academies left in the world (most likely in Europe). In addition to martial studies, the character has been trained in academic studies as well and gains a +2 bonus to Common Knowledge rolls related to higher learning (GM's call). As per the normal rules, this is generalized learning and cannot substitute for the actual Knowledge skill.

Martially, the character has been trained in one style of combat (chosen below) and gains a +1 Parry when fighting in that style.

A melee weapon in each hand.
A single one-handed melee weapon (second hand empty).
A melee weapon and buckler (small shield).
A two-handed melee weapon.

Something like that would seem to cover the desired and in-game effects while simply being based off an existing Edge.
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StJason
Novice


Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 26
Location: Under the sea (bubble)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough. Consider me slapped down. I will immediately change it to martial arts.
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