Username:    Password:      Remember me       
Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
Discussion Forum for PEG/GWG
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Differentiating 20mm and 40mm grenades/Frag-12s and beanbags

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> Deadlands: Hell on Earth & Lost Colony
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
shinryu
Seasoned


Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: Differentiating 20mm and 40mm grenades/Frag-12s and beanbags Reply with quote

So an interesting point in the HoER rules: Northern grenades 20mm, Southern grenades 40mm. This brings up two interesting points:

1) While the 40mm grenade launchers get a bonus to range, the damage of the payload is the same. While this isn't necessarily unrealistic, in some previous games the grenades for 40mm launchers (like the M79/M203 in Modern Ops or Tour of Darkness) have done more damage than equivalent hand grenades (4d8 vs. 3d6, if memory serves). So I'm wondering if maybe something similar to this might be applied to the HoER grenades. Either or both of:

a) 40mm grenades would have an upgrade to their damage effect: either +1 die type or (more consistently) +1 die and +1 die type. So a 40mm frag would be either 3d8 or 4d8, inferno 3d10 or 4d10, etc.

b) Northern grenades, assuming an analogy to the XICW/XM-25 and descendants (and keeping with the North's super-technical focus) could be smart. This would mean launched grenades from a Northern launcher could have a +1 bonus to hit and/or could halve deviation on a miss, to represent timed airbursting.

For simplicity, I'd assume thrown grenades use the type they are for damage but keep the same thrown ranges.

2) Some of the grenade types make perfect sense as shotgun rounds: while the multiprojectile is obviously redundant the beanbag, fragmentation, etc. type grenades actually exist as shotgun rounds today. One could probably use the rules as written since 20mm is very close to the bore of an existing 12 gauge (I think frag-12s are actually 19mm?), and shotgun ranges should probably balance with the 20mm grenade launcher. Of course, you do end up with the situation where you have three burst templates going off when somebody goes full RoF with frag rounds (hi Battlefield 3!), but I'm not sure that's unrealistic if we're assuming autoshotguns exist in any case.

Thoughts?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rohan
Veteran


Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 852
Location: Silver Gryphon Head Quarters

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got stats for the Frag 12 and some other specialty shotgun loads in the Wellstone City book. They're great fun, and your numbers on damage/range jive pretty well!

ETA: The range on a Frag 12 is considerably increased over normal shotgun. Doubling it isn't out of the question.
_________________
Kevin Rohan, Content Director
www.silvergryphongames.com

Become a fan on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Silvergryphongames

Current WIP: Wellstone City Chronicles, Puppets, and One-liners
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ValhallaGH
Legendary


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 6356

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever I think about using hand grenades in a grenade launcher, I start to get a migraine. Then my brain thinks about something else. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ryche
Seasoned


Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 364

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saw a demonstration of the Frag-12 on Discovery's Future Weapons. Nasty little armament. But the Wellstone City book is great if you are looking for various ammo types.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shinryu
Seasoned


Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Whenever I think about using hand grenades in a grenade launcher, I start to get a migraine. Then my brain thinks about something else. Wink


It is an... oddity. Though I suppose with logistics being a concern making launcher grenades throwable is not entirely stupid. And if your launchers use a liquid propellant or are electromagnetic, it's really not that bad of an idea. I wouldn't be too offended by an LP launcher being used in HoER though you'd have to find propellant and grenades separately (have fun with that).

But, yeah, if you want to stick to the more realistic case it's one kind thrown, one kind launched.

Hey, speaking of realistic case: HEDP rounds. Never really came up in Savage but I'm to understand basically the standard loadout on the 40mm US launchers these days. Any idea how they'd behave?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rohan
Veteran


Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 852
Location: Silver Gryphon Head Quarters

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no expert in those, but I believe they're standard 40mm grenades that would count as Heavy Weapons (if the 40's don't already)
_________________
Kevin Rohan, Content Director
www.silvergryphongames.com

Become a fan on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Silvergryphongames

Current WIP: Wellstone City Chronicles, Puppets, and One-liners
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ValhallaGH
Legendary


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 6356

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HEDP: Greater AP on the thing hit, and count as a Heavy Weapon. Everything else in the template is hit by a grenade, as normal.
This makes it a useful anti-vehicle weapon, but only if you actually hit the vehicle. That's pretty much how they work in real life.

For weapons like the Mk 19 machine gun, HEDP is the standard. For the M203, the wealth of ammunition types is used - but the common issue seems to be smoke of various colors and HEDP.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rohan
Veteran


Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 852
Location: Silver Gryphon Head Quarters

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And buckshot for crowd control....God help whoever is in front of that wall of lead.
_________________
Kevin Rohan, Content Director
www.silvergryphongames.com

Become a fan on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Silvergryphongames

Current WIP: Wellstone City Chronicles, Puppets, and One-liners
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
shinryu
Seasoned


Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
HEDP: Greater AP on the thing hit, and count as a Heavy Weapon. Everything else in the template is hit by a grenade, as normal.
This makes it a useful anti-vehicle weapon, but only if you actually hit the vehicle. That's pretty much how they work in real life.

For weapons like the Mk 19 machine gun, HEDP is the standard. For the M203, the wealth of ammunition types is used - but the common issue seems to be smoke of various colors and HEDP.


Best estimates for steel plate penetration seem to be around 2 inches, so if we use the 2.5 Armor = 1 inch conversion for vehicles that gives us an AP of 5. That sound about right? 3d6 AP5 HW is pretty nasty against light vehicles and not too shabby vs APC/LAVs if you can hit rear armor. So that seems appropriate.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rohan
Veteran


Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 852
Location: Silver Gryphon Head Quarters

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dig it.
_________________
Kevin Rohan, Content Director
www.silvergryphongames.com

Become a fan on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Silvergryphongames

Current WIP: Wellstone City Chronicles, Puppets, and One-liners
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Kilgore
Novice


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One tweak I've been thinking about is getting rid of the opportunity to dodge with an opposed agility roll for buckshot grenades. I know that's consistent with other template weapons, but it feels wrong to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rohan
Veteran


Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 852
Location: Silver Gryphon Head Quarters

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you mean buckshot-buckshot or beehive grenades for crowd control? I'd give an agility check the beehives, but probably not the buckshot grenades. For the actual buckshot rounds that it fires...yeah, there's no evading that, it's a giant shotgun. I think it's either a B gauge or a 1 1/2 gauge.
_________________
Kevin Rohan, Content Director
www.silvergryphongames.com

Become a fan on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Silvergryphongames

Current WIP: Wellstone City Chronicles, Puppets, and One-liners
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Hellfire6A
Seasoned


Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 329
Location: Spokane, Wa

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rohan wrote:
Do you mean buckshot-buckshot or beehive grenades for crowd control? I'd give an agility check the beehives, but probably not the buckshot grenades.


Beehive is pretty high velocity. I'd say you couldn't dodge it or buckshot.
_________________
http://www.armsonline.org/

None are free until all are free!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kilgore
Novice


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellfire6A wrote:
Rohan wrote:
Do you mean buckshot-buckshot or beehive grenades for crowd control? I'd give an agility check the beehives, but probably not the buckshot grenades.


Beehive is pretty high velocity. I'd say you couldn't dodge it or buckshot.


I was talking specifically about the cone-template buckshot grenades. I'd keep the agility roll for any grenade that uses a circular template. It probably makes a lot less sense in the context of launched grenades (which detonate on impact) than thrown grenades (which land and then explode after a time delay) but in the interest of consistency and not having a single automaton gib half the posse every time they run into the Combine, I say let 'em have their dodge rolls.

EDIT: Actually, upon rereading the SWD rules for blast effects, it says that "thrown weapons with a blast effect (such as grenades) and artillery allow potential targets a chance to move out of the area of effect." That makes it sound like 20mm and 40mm grenades wouldn't give the targets a chance to dodge.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shinryu
Seasoned


Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:


I was talking specifically about the cone-template buckshot grenades. I'd keep the agility roll for any grenade that uses a circular template. It probably makes a lot less sense in the context of launched grenades (which detonate on impact) than thrown grenades (which land and then explode after a time delay) but in the interest of consistency and not having a single automaton gib half the posse every time they run into the Combine, I say let 'em have their dodge rolls.

EDIT: Actually, upon rereading the SWD rules for blast effects, it says that "thrown weapons with a blast effect (such as grenades) and artillery allow potential targets a chance to move out of the area of effect." That makes it sound like 20mm and 40mm grenades wouldn't give the targets a chance to dodge.


Well, and that depends very heavily on the artillery. You can hear a mortar, could maybe maybe see the launch flash from rockets and move (like from a helicopter), I could see that allowing an Agility roll. But genuine artillery, honest to god artillery rockets, god help you that naval railgun when it comes online, certainly grenade launchers, no no. Beehive hell no. Buckshot rounds are mostly I think a game balance thing as you note.

So a couple of things since I'm thinking about it:

Technically, I guess HEDP rounds would be 4d8 damage AP5 for modern 40mm grenades? Guess you could rule the 3d6 is a more reasonable number as most of the force is involved in the AP and the blast is mostly fragmentation. Interesting side note (sort of shadowrun specific, but possibly important to modern settings): could one thereby differentiate HE vs. Fragmentation rounds? HE rounds are all blast wave, so they hit the worst armor, but fragmentation still has to get through armor as it's mostly doing its damage via small bits of high-speed metal?

Any good rules for indirect fire out there? I think I remember something in Tour of Darkness, but I'd figure you increase the range (double, maybe?) but impose the firing blind penalty assuming you're firing over a hill or whatever. Anybody remember anything else?

Speaking of naval railguns that's a hell of a hook: I wouldn't be surprised if near the Mason Dixon wall or out to sea there might not be one or two surviving emplacements or ships with a bigass gun on it. If a settlement or group could get one running they could kill anything within a few hundred miles of it. That's a lot of safety and power. I also sort of think of the Mason Dixon situation as being a lot like North and South Korea; there was probably a hell of a lot of artillery along the wall waiting to cook off. Or had the battle lines and wall basically been obliterated by the time the cease fire failed and the nukes went off?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hellfire6A
Seasoned


Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 329
Location: Spokane, Wa

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright. Experience time. I was in the US Army and I have seen many of the things we are talking about in use. So I'll toss in my two cents. The advice is worth the price of admission (perhaps). Remember that many of the guys that made SW have military experience.

Mortar rounds. Mortars are just about the most up close and personal of the bigger artillery types. You can hear them fire (and the sound travels faster than the round). If you are looking in the right direction you can even see the muzzle flash. And yes if you are looking in the right direction and have good visibility you can see the round travel through the air. Yes they are that "slow". So for experienced soldiers, veterans, getting out of the way or diving for cover is a possibility.

Howitzers often fire from over the horizon, so really no chance of seeing the launch (sometimes you can still hear them!) . However, the rounds are slow (if you are looking in the right direction and with good vis you can see them in flight). Howitzer rounds can be heard coming. If you have experienced, veterans, diving for cover is possible.

Guns, forget about it. Flat trajectory rounds are travelling too fast to see. Or even comprehend. I was a Tank gunner for awhile on an M1. It had the old 105mm. Lovely gun. My belief is the Army made a mistake buying the 120mm. The DS from the 105 traveled at a mile a second! The HEAT round was much slower, but not slow enough from the perspective of someone trying to jump out of the way! However, I'd allow Dodge to act as armor. Reading the description a person with dodge is constantly using the terrain to their advantage.

Never seen or been on the receiving end of a rocket attack. My Dad has and he offered this bit of advice when I was stationed in ROK. "There is always one or two that arrive late. So stay down even if you think the barrage is over. I used to knew some guys that didn't know that." You can here rockets coming, again if you have experienced troops they should be able to dive for cover.

Grenade launcher rounds are just cut down mortars. Since you are really up close and personal you can see the flash and hear the launch barring other factors inhibiting sight and sound. You can see a GL round in flight they are slow, low powered rounds. The 20mm rounds are smaller and faster you may want to say you can't see or dodge them (similar to a bullet). Having said that the amount of charge each one holds will be less. I'd game that by dropping the damage a die type. 3d6 becomes 3d4 etc.

House rule. However, the King of Battle doesn't flex his muscles one round at a time. SW is primarily a skirmish game and single rounds would allow a soldier a chance to move out of the blast template. But certainly not out from under a barrage. In that situation (which I haven't gamed yet) allow the PC or NPC to make a standard Agility - 2 roll. If they succeed let them run (making the normal running roll) to get to any cover they can in their run range. Don't allow them to dodge subsequent rounds in the barrage. In Weird War II, Necropolis or Modern Ops you could allow them to dodge the Spotting rounds individually, but only the first round in the barrage. You could use the running roll in either situation or just with the barrage however you want.

Great misquoted my Dad. He said, "I used to know some guys that never learned that." Wow, I need some food.
_________________
http://www.armsonline.org/

None are free until all are free!


Last edited by Hellfire6A on Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hellfire6A
Seasoned


Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 329
Location: Spokane, Wa

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to complain about the 2.5 AV per inch of RHA, but I did a little research and using the Panzer IV Ausf J in the book as an example came to the same exact conclusion. Surprised

Penetration for the M433 is listed as 63mm or nearly 2.5 inches. So the penetration for a standard HEDP round would probably be more like 6 instead of 5. Using that ratio then 20mm HEDP could penetrate 30mm or AP 3.

Note: If 2.5 AV per inch is accurate then Knights wearing plate mail really were tanks. They had as much armor as a Panzer III! The equivalent of 30mm of armor!
_________________
http://www.armsonline.org/

None are free until all are free!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shinryu
Seasoned


Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellfire6A wrote:
Alright. Experience time. I was in the US Army and I have seen many of the things we are talking about in use. So I'll toss in my two cents. The advice is worth the price of admission (perhaps). Remember that many of the guys that made SW have military experience.

Mortar rounds. Mortars are just about the most up close and personal of the bigger artillery types. You can hear them fire (and the sound travels faster than the round). If you are looking in the right direction you can even see the muzzle flash. And yes if you are looking in the right direction and have good visibility you can see the round travel through the air. Yes they are that "slow". So for experienced soldiers, veterans, getting out of the way or diving for cover is a possibility.

Howitzers often fire from over the horizon, so really no chance of seeing the launch (sometimes you can still hear them!) . However, the rounds are slow (if you are looking in the right direction and with good vis you can see them in flight). Howitzer rounds can be heard coming. If you have experienced, veterans, diving for cover is possible.

Guns, forget about it. Flat trajectory rounds are travelling too fast to see. Or even comprehend. I was a Tank gunner for awhile on an M1. It had the old 105mm. Lovely gun. My belief is the Army made a mistake buying the 120mm. The DS from the 105 traveled at a mile a second! The HEAT round was much slower, but not slow enough from the perspective of someone trying to jump out of the way! However, I'd allow Dodge to act as armor. Reading the description a person with dodge is constantly using the terrain to their advantage.

Never seen or been on the receiving end of a rocket attack. My Dad has and he offered this bit of advice when I was stationed in ROK. "There is always one or two that arrive late. So stay down even if you think the barrage is over. I used to knew some guys that didn't know that." You can here rockets coming, again if you have experienced troops they should be able to dive for cover.

Grenade launcher rounds are just cut down mortars. Since you are really up close and personal you can see the flash and hear the launch barring other factors inhibiting sight and sound. You can see a GL round in flight they are slow, low powered rounds. The 20mm rounds are smaller and faster you may want to say you can't see or dodge them (similar to a bullet). Having said that the amount of charge each one holds will be less. I'd game that by dropping the damage a die type. 3d6 becomes 3d4 etc.

House rule. However, the King of Battle doesn't flex his muscles one round at a time. SW is primarily a skirmish game and single rounds would allow a soldier a chance to move out of the blast template. But certainly not out from under a barrage. In that situation (which I haven't gamed yet) allow the PC or NPC to make a standard Agility - 2 roll. If they succeed let them run (making the normal running roll) to get to any cover they can in their run range. Don't allow them to dodge subsequent rounds in the barrage. In Weird War II, Necropolis or Modern Ops you could allow them to dodge the Spotting rounds individually, but only the first round in the barrage. You could use the running roll in either situation or just with the barrage however you want.


Good to know. I was always under the impression artillery was pretty much supersonic; basically I was told if you hear the sound it's a mortar; if you explode first and then hear the sound (if you somehow survive) it's artillery.

As far as AV is concerned I think they're meaning to be RHA equivalents, which I don't think the early tanks were quite up to yet. It may explain the discrepancy in the penetration calculations. On the upside the tanks are Heavy Armor (aren't they?), so a little tougher than plate armor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hellfire6A
Seasoned


Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 329
Location: Spokane, Wa

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heavy Weapons still have to overcome armor, either with a damage roll or AP. They get no inherent "skip anything that isn't Heavy Armor" schtick. So in effect even vs. Heavy Weapons plate mail is just as effective as the armor on a Panzer III!

Muzzle velocity on big gun artillery like howitzers maybe faster than the speed of sound. However, unless the gun is being used in direct fire mode the trajectory of the round often means the report of the gun reaches the target first. Another caveat, that supposes other environmental factors don't get in the way, like distance degrading the sound or intervening terrain masking the sound or the target being under fire at the time.
_________________
http://www.armsonline.org/

None are free until all are free!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shinryu
Seasoned


Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellfire6A wrote:
Heavy Weapons still have to overcome armor, either with a damage roll or AP. They get no inherent "skip anything that isn't Heavy Armor" schtick. So in effect even vs. Heavy Weapons plate mail is just as effective as the armor on a Panzer III!


True; I just meant the knight's not better off then the panzer as he's still worrying about the rifles and the pistols while the panzer is rolling through anything up to a .50. He's just as resistant, sure, but vulnerable to a lot more threats overall.

Honestly, I don't know why Heavy Weapons don't ignore normal armor. It would make Kevlar as written a lot more tolerable, I know it's a house rule for Clint and some of the crew, and really once you've reached the Heavy Weapons there's not a lot that can stand up to them that isn't going to be Heavy Armor anyway. Makes MetaStopper/AP ammo work better too.

Regarding artillery: I hadn't thought of someone actually hearing the report of the weapon previous to the shell impact, I guess that's quite possible under the right circumstances. (Not going to spend an hour doing howitzer trigonometry, I have actual work to do, however tempting not doing actual work is). But would that be more of a signal to get to cover as the fire is coming in in the next round? Or is that generally so close to the impact (within six seconds for game terms) that the Agility rolls work just fine as far as representing your ability to get out of the way?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> Deadlands: Hell on Earth & Lost Colony All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum