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Modifiers change dice type

 
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silverwave
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject: Modifiers change dice type Reply with quote

So I was wondering if you could change -2/+2 modifiers into +/- 1 die type. So instead of having say 1d6-2 you would throw 1d4. I checked the odds and flat modifiers have a greater impact but its a price.im willing to pay for this.

Major advantage of this method is ease of use and faster gameplay. Personnaly, I'm not too fond of grinding modifiers here and there and thid method would speed up things a bit at the table. And its more elegant than having to add/substract mods.

So I was wondering what you guys though about this and if I oversighted major things that this method would screw the game entirely.

Please, only constructive comments. I don't care about purist that are offended by any modification to their sacred game. Don't worry. We'll never play in the same game anyway.[/u]
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Cryonic
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 920

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At some point you are going to run out of steps on the dice if you utilize this vs the normal flat modifier. There are only 4 steps from the lowest die to the highest... so someone with more than a d4 would eventually have to add a flat modifier again to their roll to keep stacking on bonuses due to situation modifiers. And someone with a d4 wouldn't be bothered by tons of negatives if they only changed the die type as you can't roll lower than a d4...

The easier way to handle this is to remove the modifier from the player and applying it to the target number yourself. So, rather than the player rolling and adding/subtracting... you subtract the modifier from the TN to get the actual TN needed (subtracting a negative number makes the TN go up Smile )... I find this to be far faster than the player adding/subtracting themselves or having to change die types from what is listed on their character sheet.

And what do you do about the +1/-1 modifiers if a step is based on +2/-2?

http://www.daemonstorm.com/role-playing/savage-worlds/Savage-Worlds-Dice-Probabilities
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 6189

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be clear, the odds are not a "little" different. They're orders of magnitude different.

A Wild Card with d4+2 has a 95.8% chance of basic success; he only fails on a critical failure. He has a 32.2% chance of getting a raise.
A Wild Card with d12 has a 87.5% chance of basic success. He has a 49.8% chance of a raise.
Even a +1 is a huge bonus, about on par with changing two die types.

So, your odds are going to be massively different, making all kinds of things difficult to figure out.


Secondly, your players are now having to change all kinds of dice around. They aren't rolling their Trait, possibly with a modifier at the end. They're rolling completely different dice, and have to ask you what they're rolling for every single trait roll. That's going to slow down game play for most tables. Slow it down a lot.


Then we come to the problem of stacking penalties, and how those can push the die type below "untrained".


My conclusion: You're creating more problems than you're solving.
If you hate modifiers, and I can understand that, then don't track them. If your players don't keep track of them then they don't apply - they'll almost certainly keep track of the mods that help them out. This will tend to result in faster and more over-the-top games, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.
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Zadmar
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Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 2212
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Modifiers change dice type Reply with quote

silverwave wrote:
So I was wondering if you could change -2/+2 modifiers into +/- 1 die type. So instead of having say 1d6-2 you would throw 1d4. I checked the odds and flat modifiers have a greater impact but its a price.im willing to pay for this.

The average (rounded to 2.d.p) of each die type, with acing, is:

d4: 3.33
d6: 4.2
d8: 5.14
d10: 6.11
d12: 7.09

So generally speaking, a flat +1 bonus is a little better than a die increase, but close enough that it won't make a huge difference. However a flat bonus is added after rolling the wild die, so to keep it comparable you'd need to increase the wild die as well.

As Cryonic pointed out, you're going to rapidly run out of die steps (unless you're using irregular dice like d14s, d16s, etc).

But there's also an interesting side-effect of the +2 bonus many professional edges give you - it means "professionals" only fail standard (TN4) tasks if they roll a 1, or snake eyes if they're a wild card. It avoids the vast majority of "silly mistakes" that a skilled professional would be unlikely to make.
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silverwave
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, well as I see the probability is quite greater than I expected. I didn't accounted the +2 also applied to the Wild Die, so this is where I got t wrong.

Effectively, it's too much of a difference to be a viable option.

Thanks for pointing that out!

I don't really like the idea of applying the mod directly to the TN because a + has to lower the TN and vice versa.

Well, thanks to you all, I'll just drop the idea, it's not viable Smile
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