Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[greyseerco]

I have been toying with this edge for a bit and I wanted to get the forums feedback on this one (too powerful, too weak, too wordy, etc.)

Thanks


Read People
Requirements: Veteran, Smarts d8+, Spirit d8+, Notice d10+
People are like an open book to you, and you really like to read. After observing someone (so this doesn’t work on monsters and animals) for 15 minutes you can make a notice roll. For a success you get to know either all their stats (ie Agility, etc.), all their Hindrances, or all their Edges. Each raise allows you one more set of information. Failure allows the GM to give you false information or no information at all. This can only be used once on a person, as you can only ever make one first impression. (Example: Victoria is measuring up Wayne, she rolls a 9 on her Notice, so that is a success with one raise, she can now learn his edges and hindrances if she so chose or his edges and stats, but not all three).

[Bhikku]

A neat idea that could do with a little refinement. It sounds like a Professional Edge, and I gather you want to represent the way some characters can display uncanny insight into another character through subtle, keen observations. I think we might want to narrow the effect a little to sharpen the focus. I can think of three archetypes off the top of my head that would suit an edge like this: the veteran warrior who can identify a combatant's strengths and weaknesses almost immediately, a "cold reader" such as a stage magician or fake psychic who seems almost to read a stranger's mind, and a distant observer who watches a character from afar to compile information (such as a private investigator).

I'm personally most interested in the cold reading, since it involves the most direct interaction with an NPC and requires a high level of skill, although it sounds like the distant observer is more like what you were aiming for. Most of my suggestions are the same either way, and perhaps a single edge would work for both.

First of all, I wouldn't let a simple roll reveal 'all' of anything. Two raises are not too hard to accomplish with a decent Notice roll. I would suggest that a success and each raise would reveal one Edge or Hindrance (player's choice). In this case, I wouldn't put a hard limit on the roll - the cold reader might be able to roll for every five minutes of conversation, the distant observer for every hour of observation. In either case, a 1 on the skill die (regardless of the wild die) indicates that the PC won't be able to make any more attempts this day (even if he spends a Benny to re-roll). A critical failure might indicate that the subject caught on to what he was doing (and he will probably not be able to attempt this on that subject ever again, to say the least).

I'm reluctant to give out a character's actual stats, and the Edge sounds to me like it's about getting insight into a character's mind and behavior, which sounds a lot more like Edges and Hindrances to me. However, I suppose a success or raise might let the reader/observer identify either the highest and lowest attributes, or spot all the attributes that are above average (d8 or higher), or all those that are below average (d4). But just giving the player a list of Attributes and dice feels a little too much like reducing a character to its stats, which i try to avoid.

As for the requirements, Professional edges are normally available at Novice level, and I see no reason why this ability would be in appropriate for a dedicated character right out of the gate. Rank requirements are generally limited to Combat, Leadership, Wild Card, and Legendary edges, none of which describe this one. I don't think there's any reason to require Spirit, since both observation and analysis are linked with Smarts. Professional Edges rarely have a requirement above d8, but i'd suggest having a few additional skills required at d6 to reflect how the character gets the opportunity to make those insightful Notice rolls. A Knowledge skill seems appropriate, maybe Psychology or Human Behavior or something. And depending on tactic, either Persuasion or Stealth at d6.

One more thought: if the ability is being limited to Edges and Hindrances as I suggest, it might still be applicable to observing animals and monsters. It would still only identify Special Abilities that correspond to existing Edges and Hindrances, and thus would be limited to observing monsters to the degree that their behavior is humanlike, but would be a handy way of realizing that e.g. a vampire is Level-headed.

My proposed version would be something like this:

[ogbendog]

I'd be tempted to call it Profiler, and allow you to use Investigate if you have access to their e-mail, diary, house, etc.

(ala Criminal Minds)

[Bhikku]

[greyseerco]

@Bhikku, thank you for your feedback you make lots of really good points and I appreciate your comments. I will definitely leverage them as I go forward with the campaign.
@ogbendon thanks for the great title.

Since not every setting has Knowledge: Psychology (so the swordsman model you mentioned) I was going to bump it up to Seasoned, only to show that some experience is required.

Do you see it being able to work as a two dice roll system? ie. Roll Persuasion (1/ 3minutes), Stealth (1/hour), or Investigation or Streetwise (1/day), then Roll Notice.

If so then, how about

[Bhikku]

I don't really think it's an issue of whether a particular Knowledge specialization exists in a campaign; i think it's more a matter of requiring the player who wants this edge to put a skill point or two into it. In the plot point campaign books I have, there's not really anything to indicate what knowledges are or aren't appropriate to the campaign or genre, but certain edges and powers note specific Knowledge specializations as requirements, so there's a precedent to doing it this way.

I agree that it's a little odd that a critical failure on a Notice roll could cause results that feel like failures on a Stealth (or whatever) roll, but I think it can be justified in the system simply by saying that you not only are failing to pick up the info you want, you get so focused on that that you fail to notice when you've pushed your luck and given yourself away. Also, Savage Worlds doesn't usually break tasks into multiple rolls outside of combat, where it's dramatically appropriate.

However, these thoughts get me thinking that there is an obvious solution to address both of these: a Knowledge skill that is specific to this edge, and that encompasses not only knowledge about creating a profile, but also the know-how to do it. Knowledge: Profiling. You can use it as I suggested, requiring a player to invest a few skill points to have this Knowledge at a d6, in which case require Smarts d8, Notice d8, and at least one of Investigation, Persuasion, or Stealth at d6. Or....

You could have the Edge actually give the character Knowledge: Profiling at d4, which can then be improved through regular Advances. This would be, as far as I know, unprecedented in the system, but it would be a reasonable way to achieve the effect you want. If taking this route, make the requirements a little more stiff: Smarts and Notice can stay d8, but Investigation, Persuasion, or Stealth should be a d8. Or possibly just pick two and make 'em both d6, depending on what you want available.

(I still suggest sticking with Novice rank, though; Professional Edges should be available at character creation to anyone willing to invest their points in the build.)

Whichever way you do it, Knowledge: Profiling is the skill you'd use to perform the task. Success and raises would gain info, failures and criticals would cause trouble, one roll takes care of it. I'll suggest that anyone with the Edge can use any of the methods (snooping, surveillance, or conversation), but if the character lacks the appropriate skill, the Profiling roll is made with a -2 penalty.

That might streamline things a little further, what do you think?
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[greyseerco]

@Bhikku: You make good points, making it one roll should be the goal, and you are right - this should be a professional edge. One that even a novice could start with.

I was looking at it from the context of my setting and not considering it could be applied to other settings.

As such the know(psychology) makes sense, even if in a fantasy setting it would not be called such (probably witchcraft ;) ). But to make it work I think it should force an interaction between the profiler and the person.

As such it would not work on non-intelligent monsters or those who are already hostile to them ("Pardon me, I know you are busy trying to kill me, but lets discuss some things.") Allowing it to work off of stealth or investigation or streetwise removes the risk of discovery and could/would limit what kind of things you could learn (I can observe he is elderly, but I could also see that when talking to him). Those tools serve their purposes in examining a person, but to get to know someone you need to talk to them. Not that you didn't have great ideas and those are great supporting Skills for someone planning on playing a PI, I am just trying to make this more for the social character.

So again I thank you for your input, it has definitely helped.


So the current itteration I think I will bring to the players would be:

[Bhikku]

Looks good. I agree, the conversational gambit is the most engaging and dramatic, since it has the tension of a face-to-face with an unknowing enemy, and the risk of things going very badly very quickly. I also thinks it suits the kinds of characters we see do this sort of thing in movies and shows, too.

Your write-up looks pretty good. I'm glad i was able to help you smooth out the wrinkles, and I'm glad you brought the idea up. I suspect I'll be putting this to use myself sooner or later.

Have fun with it!
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You can't save the world without kicking a few old ladies down the stairs.