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shinryu
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Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 300
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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:31 pm Post subject: Guidelines for pricing new power modifiers in SPC? |
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| So, this sort of came up in the guidelines for super attribute/skill thread, but I thought it might be worth a general discussion. Are there any good rules of thumb for pricing out a new power modifier? As an example, let's say a particular character's Armor should in fact stack with worn armor (it's a cybernetic layer of skin, natural scales, whatever). So how much is that worth in power point costs? The equivalent Toughness costs 3 points for +2, but you get 1 point more protection here, but it's also not subject to AP. So my guess is that 1 or 2 points is appropriate, but how to decide? Armor for a species stacks and is equivalent to a Novice Edge, so if you figure it as 3 points (for the extra point of Armor) that suggests 3 points (+1 or + 1 per level) is appropriate. I realize many of these types of things are GM calls, but it is always nice to have some idea of how the design is intended to function here. |
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Guidelines for pricing new power modifiers in SPC? |
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| shinryu wrote: | | let's say a particular character's Armor should in fact stack with worn armor (it's a cybernetic layer of skin, natural scales, whatever). |
Still waiting for an example that should stack. 
| Quote: | | Armor for a species stacks |
No, it does not.
The only armors that stack are physical and energy. The classic example is mundane steel plate and magic deflection fields, but other examples exist.
However, the SPC is very explicit about the Armor power. It doesn't stack with mundane armor, period. If your GM feels the need to change that, that's on her.
Where it gets fuzzy is when you've got Armor 9 (for 6 PP) and wear a Force Belt. Fortunately, this has been clarified - you use one or the other, whichever is most beneficial. So, against small arms you use the Force Belt and it's Heavy Armor. Against Heavy Weapons you would use the Armor power.
Have fun!
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shinryu
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Joined: 18 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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That's the first I've heard that racial armor and worn armor do not stack. Where is this stated? I don't see it in SWD.
To restate: I realize that armor is very explicit about not stacking. If that were to be changed for a particular character, how much more valuable is it to have the Armor power? It's not a very productive discussion to merely point out that by RAW the power should not do x when the point of the discussion is how much allowing the power to in fact do x should increase its cost. |
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Zadmar
Heroic
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1382
Location: Munich
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Guidelines for pricing new power modifiers in SPC? |
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| ValhallaGH wrote: | | shinryu wrote: | | let's say a particular character's Armor should in fact stack with worn armor (it's a cybernetic layer of skin, natural scales, whatever). |
Still waiting for an example that should stack. |
The wickedly seductive Cakeman. His body is composed of light fluffy sponge cake (Altered Form) which grants him +4 armor against attacks resulting from matter and kinetics, while his sweetly frosted exterior (Armor + Heavy Armor) gives him an additional +9 armor against all forms of damage. Superheroes wishing to deal with this high calorie fiend should be careful not to bite off more than they can chew! |
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=348225#348225
Zadmar, that is both hilarious and totally allowed by the existing rules. Being made of cake is not mundane armor. 
| Quote: | | If that were to be changed for a particular character, how much more valuable is it to have the Armor power? |
About a +2. The utility depends upon the availability of mundane armor, but it is a serious potential defense boost.
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Clint
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16176
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| shinryu wrote: | | That's the first I've heard that racial armor and worn armor do not stack. Where is this stated? I don't see it in SWD. |
Armor is armor, regardless of whether it is racial or worn.
| shinryu wrote: | | To restate: I realize that armor is very explicit about not stacking. If that were to be changed for a particular character, how much more valuable is it to have the Armor power? It's not a very productive discussion to merely point out that by RAW the power should not do x when the point of the discussion is how much allowing the power to in fact do x should increase its cost. |
I wouldn't do it as a Modifier at all, but just an alteration in the Armor power for a specific trapping. In this case, the power would grant Armor equal to the PPs spent (instead of the increased value).
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shinryu
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Joined: 18 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | shinryu wrote: | | That's the first I've heard that racial armor and worn armor do not stack. Where is this stated? I don't see it in SWD. |
Armor is armor, regardless of whether it is racial or worn.
| shinryu wrote: | | To restate: I realize that armor is very explicit about not stacking. If that were to be changed for a particular character, how much more valuable is it to have the Armor power? It's not a very productive discussion to merely point out that by RAW the power should not do x when the point of the discussion is how much allowing the power to in fact do x should increase its cost. |
I wouldn't do it as a Modifier at all, but just an alteration in the Armor power for a specific trapping. In this case, the power would grant Armor equal to the PPs spent (instead of the increased value). |
That seems sensible, yeah. It's basically the SFTk solution. Honestly, I'd just use SFTk for a lot of this, but since it's an older book I'm trying to do as much as I can in SPC for maximal compatibility with the world. However, I was seriously unclear on the racial armor not stacking! I have been doing that wrong, evidently. I had kind of thought the "armor doesn't stack" was an SPC exclusive at least as far as if the armor was an inherent ability.
So, yeah, Cakeman; actually pretty good. But it does bring up a serious point regarding this idea: Altered form wouldn't be a bad way to do something like a reinforced skeleton: you chop off the stretching/shape changing abilities and Reach and you get +4 stacking Armor against physical attack, which is what most of such a thing should protect you against (harder to cut, harder to shoot in vital organs), but not so much being slagged by flamethrowers, magical assaults, etc. Figure that's worth 2
points? |
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Bhikku
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Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 141
Location: I'm in your house. Call me.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | shinryu wrote: | | That's the first I've heard that racial armor and worn armor do not stack. Where is this stated? I don't see it in SWD. |
Armor is armor, regardless of whether it is racial or worn. |
If that's the case, I need to ask about the stats on the K'tharen Warrior in NE. I did finally get ahold of the EX version (which is even better than the hardcover!), but the K'tharen stats don't appear to have changed: Vigor d10 and Size +2 would grant Toughness 9; Toughness is listed as 13 (4) which is consistent. However, that armor appears to come from two sources stacking together: the Fin Combat Suit (Armor +2, Heavy Armor) listed in Equipment, and Armor +2: Thick Skin listed in Special Abilities.
Is this just a simple case of 'enemies don't always have to stick to the same rules that PCs do' or is there something I'm overlooking?
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Clint
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Joined: 13 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bhikku wrote: | If that's the case, I need to ask about the stats on the K'tharen Warrior in NE. I did finally get ahold of the EX version (which is even better than the hardcover!), but the K'tharen stats don't appear to have changed: Vigor d10 and Size +2 would grant Toughness 9; Toughness is listed as 13 (4) which is consistent. However, that armor appears to come from two sources stacking together: the Fin Combat Suit (Armor +2, Heavy Armor) listed in Equipment, and Armor +2: Thick Skin listed in Special Abilities.
Is this just a simple case of 'enemies don't always have to stick to the same rules that PCs do' or is there something I'm overlooking? |
No, it's a case of no matter what I do, I cannot get that piece of errata fixed in NE. It's like someone comes along behind me and says, "Oh no, Clint made a mistake, and a simple one at that. 2+2 is obviously 4. I can't tell him; he'll be crushed. I'll just fix it for him." 
You know, I think I'm just going to leave it in there now. Every book needs errata, and at least I know about this one!
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Clint Black
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Bhikku
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Posts: 141
Location: I'm in your house. Call me.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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oh wow. So the correct Toughness should be 11 (2)? Heavy armor worn, but a called shot to bypass still has to deal with thick skin for equally tough armor, yes? That makes sense.
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shinryu
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Joined: 18 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually, that's an interesting point I hadn't considered. In general, if it's not a device, you can't bypass inherent Armor? Cool. That makes the no stacking a bit more palatable actually. |
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4475
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| shinryu wrote: | | Actually, that's an interesting point I hadn't considered. In general, if it's not a device, you can't bypass inherent Armor? Cool. |
Depends upon the trappings. But a shot to the eye will bypass most trappings of armor (thick skin, steel skin, bony protrusions, etc.). There are usually a couple of places on the body that are not armored. Usually. 
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"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die." |
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