Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

Mylon · Seasoned Joined: 08 Jun 2010 Posts: 295

I'm at it again, always going on about game balance. I was rereading a rather infamous guide for a different game system and came to the realization that it seems to apply in this game as well. For those not in the know, I present Treatmonk's Guide to Wizards: Being a God

Some basic tidbits of the guide:

skylion · Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:38 am Post subject:

You might be reading to much into it: So you take an AB, and you have an connected skill. That's at least one level up and, depending on your linked Trait for the AB, at least three points be be just above average (from your skill points pool).

You still have to take Vigor in account for Toughness (cause if a tiny goblin gets through defenders to the wizard a lucky roll can end the day), and Spirit into account for a good chance to roll off shaken. Just by any account you'll have d6 in all your Traits; which makes raising skills above d6 expensive; this is including the arcane skill. Fighting is important cause it links to Parry. Have enough skill points? Sure, but you might not have Swimming or something basic like that.

AB users are still fairly squishy starting out. This is way before they can summon, or have enough level ups to increase PP to make buffing really useful for all concerned.
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77IM · Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:38 am Post subject:

Well, quickness and summon ally are generally thought as two of the best powers -- most other powers seem pretty close to balanced to me. I guess deflect is a bit iffy, and I've seen some horrible things done with shape change too. Of these, though, summon ally and shape change are really only problems at higher ranks. I feel their utility outpaces their cost. Deflect is only good because it's Novice and cheap (contrast: invisibility). Quickness is just stupid-good at any level and is the only power I would consider outright broken.

So you really only need to "fix" 2-3 powers, if you go that route.

In my experience, these powers do make a difference, but one easy way to balance it is to give the fighter-types better magic items. Give the wizard-types items with extra power points in them or a bonus power -- that increases depth and versatility but they are not really any more powerful on a round-to-round basis. Now give the fighter a flaming weapon +2 and armor +2 and suddenly he's considerably stronger, with no downside. Both characters are getting "good" magic items but the fighter's are actually more balancing.

-- 77IM
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Mylon · Seasoned Joined: 08 Jun 2010 Posts: 295

Well, it's not just that. Who needs stealth when you can go invisible and fly? Coast right through a watched area in broad daylight. That's better than a d12 in stealth. Likewise, using a wall or entangle to separate the enemies so you can pick them off turns into a great advantage. Or being able to essentially perform autofire without the normal -2 penalty. The gist of the guide is, "Magic does everything better", and while this guide was written for Pathfinder, it seems to apply very well to Savage Worlds. Especially the part about summoning! Like being able to summon 2 allies at seasoned power, then have them wild attack the same target for +3 to hit (at least) and +2 damage, off the already nice base of 2d8. Even house ruling that they can't wild attack, they still have awesome stats with the gangup bonuses and they keep on giving. And any hit they take is power points the healer won't have to spend healing.

ogbendog · Heroic Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 1916

duration of most spells is 3 rounds, then it's 1 pp / turn after that

you try flying invisibly, it'll eat up your power points.

you have to get those spells up. Sure, they are great, but they also can go down if you are injured.

unlike PF, you can run right past foes; there are no opportunity attacks. So the ability of summoned allies to block movement is diminished.

Lord Inar · Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject:

Also, Pathfinder doesn't (as much as I can remember) have nearly the consequences of backlash that SW does. If you want to be a spellcaster in SW, you'd better be prepared for a little heat back at ya.

No matter how good a spellcaster gets they will always have at best an 8% chance of backlash every time they use a power (rolling a 1 on a d12 skill die).
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cpk666 · Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject:

Mylon,

Have you actually had a session or sessions where magic dominated the field, are these all theoretical musings? I think your examples are failing to take into account the limiting factor of Power Points.

Let’s take a Legendary rank mage. He can, at most, have 35 Power Points, barring magic items. Looking at your “coast right through a watched area in broad daylight” example:

Round 1: casts Invisibility pays 5 PP
Round 2: casts Fly (double Pace) pays 6 PP, Flies 12"
Round 3: Flies 12”
Round 4: Flies 12”, pays 1 PP to maintain Invisibility
Round 5: Flies 12”, pays 1 PP to maintain Invisibility & 1 PP to maintain Fly
Round 6: Flies 12”, pays 1 PP to maintain Invisibility & 1 PP to maintain Fly

At the end of Round 6 he has only travelled 60” and spent 16 PP. He is at -2 to any additional spell casting due to maintaining two powers, and he only has 19 PP remaining. If he had wanted to take his 5 companions with him he’d be down to 9 PP. And this a Legendary mage! He should be able to do this. Of course, at Legendary he should be facing opponents who have war bats or other creatures that don’t require sight to track, or opponents who can detect magic.

Magic may be potent, but the juice runs out fast.

CK
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Since this is my post, please understand that the thoughts expressed in it are my opinion.

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archus · Novice Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 59 Location: New Mexico

Arcane Backgrounds aren't generally overpowered in SW. They have the following things to deal with :

Backlash - At best 8% of your spells will cause backlash or device malfuntion.
Disruption - Any time you take damage, roll to see if you drop all your maintained spells.
Maintenance - Take a -1 casting penalty for every spell being maintained.
Limited Power Points - Most of the ABs I've played or seen play run out often. Mostly starting characters so it gets better. Except for Weird Science... more on that later.
Extremely Limited Duration - You can't keep a "buff spell" going in preparation for combat... unless you know the combat is coming in the next minute.
Separate Skill - You have an extra skill to maintain. If you have the super power AB you have one per power.
Edge for each new power
Depending on setting; many of your powers are equaled or exceeded by equipment. Guns, dynamite, and armor. So focus on the funky stuff like quickness, summon, etc.

While someone with an arcane background is spending skills and edges on powers; someone else spends them on being hell on wheels with a gun or something.

There are some powers that definitely can't be simulated by normal equipment. And quickness and summon definitely seem to be some of the best powers (but aren't cheap to use or maintain).

Of all the ABs I think that superpowers gets the shaft... buying a new skill for every power pretty much blows and isn't worth the lack of backlash. "But they also get more power points"... yeah that leads me to...

The Weird Scientist feels overpowered. They can maintain for free and every power gets a whole separate pool of points (and in Deadlands they get bonus power points for some reason). You really need to enforce the problem with WS ... your stuff can get broken and stolen. Breakage can happen from a malfunction or someone hitting it with their sword ... keep that in mind. The other disad of weird science is that you have to use other skills to control the device when it makes sense (shooting for a blaster for example) but I've found that the right explanation lets you use your WS skill (enough that I've thought of just allowing it).

Most of the people that I know that normally like playing casters don't like it in SW mainly because of maintenance costs.
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skylion · Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject:

All of the AB's available in the Core Rules are balanced with/against one another. I've used them on both sides of the screen each with one another in Ravaged Earth and in Pulp style adventures and that lack of Backlash is critical. It means they don't have to get out of shaken and are pretty much free to try again. Want to do that with the other ABs? Spend a benny, which you may or may not get back.

As for Mad Scientist getting more power points for some reason? It's because each new Power they take as a Level Up comes with a new mental Hindrance. But then, that is the nature of the Deadlands background.

And if facing off against Gizmos, it is almost the going concern to target them in combat. Which can lead to all sorts of interesting....read: not at all easy to keep.
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Mylon · Seasoned Joined: 08 Jun 2010 Posts: 295

I've definitely seen these in action. Summoning in particular. As I said, even at novice the summoned ally is very powerful, with d8 fighting and 2d8 damage, the ability to wild attack and they will generally be fighting next to a party member for +1 or more to hit from gangup. If they get hit, not only are they incredibly tough, but that's also a healing spell the healer isn't using on your party! Even removing the ability to wild attack they still proved incredibly powerful.

The flying and invisible idea was just an over the top example of how the wizard can bypass challenges and replace the need for other skills. Flight also generally bypasses the need for climb, may obsolete swimming in some cases. There's still the ability of autofire, or having some very hard hitting ranged spells like 3d6 bolt or 3d6 blast. A fighter type might have to take shooting for occasional bow use, but the wizard takes his "shooting" skill and gets so much more. I don't really have a problem with bolt dealing 2d6, but other uses are fairly cheap for what they do. Likewise the empowered blast is fairly cheap for the effect.

Maintaining seems to be uncommon, as spells doesn't count as being maintained until after the 3rd round is over so, especially with quicken involved, it seems better to recast them than potentially spend a premium maintaining and suffer the -1 on top of that.

Quicken used more like pathfinder haste (get one extra action per turn, including repeating an existing action) rather than entire turn makes it slightly less absurd.

farik · Seasoned Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 322

cpk666 · Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:28 am Post subject:

Mylon · Seasoned Joined: 08 Jun 2010 Posts: 295

My combats typically involve 10-20 extras and 1-4 wild cards. They're pretty big and pretty epic. And by the time it's resolved (most of my players are still fairly new) that's eaten a good chunk of the session's time and I want to get the story moving, so hours and even days pass.

You can say that the mage is hurting for PP, but keep in mind how much bang for the buck the seasoned-level mage is getting for maybe 5 edges: Arcane BG, PP x2, New Power, Wizard. Sure, sounds like a lot, but having 8 bodyguards on the field for 16 pp or less, all wild attacking and alternating headshots for +6/+2 or +2/+6 to hit/damage on round 3. Alternately they drop two empowered and enlarged blasts and one empowered blast for 16 (or less) PP for reliable crowd clearing. And this is only covering 3 of the mage's 4 powers, or this could cover a divine caster with only 3 powers but no risk of backlash.

This sounds expensive at 5 edges, but compare this to a warrior that has to spend two edges worth of advancement just to have a decent ranged option and will probably have more edges like Brawny and Combat Reflexes to survive being on the front lines. The wizard can neglect shooting as when down to 4 pp, can spend the last few rounds throwing out low level bolts or blasts.

Quickness by itself is superior to Improved Frenzy. It's available earlier. It allows two attacks to be made at no penalty including a wild die for each. It can be bestowed upon multiple people. And it's more versatile as attacking isn't the only option. It requires a round of windup, but this is the only disadvantage.

ValhallaGH · Legendary Joined: 25 Apr 2010 Posts: 4482

cpk666 · Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject:

farik · Seasoned Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 322

I have to agree with the others, it sounds like mages are probably more powerful in your games because of how you run them. You'll have to decide if you and your group would Rather change your adventure composition or how certain spells work.

It's sort of like complaining werewolves don't have a drawback on the night of the full moon because you're running a sci-fi game on a world with no moon.

That being said there's nothing wrong with how you're playing as long as you're having fun. Changing a couple spells might be easier than trying to design adventures differently. Or maybe you just let everyone play spellcasters and don't sweat it.