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[HC] Race Balance

 
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77IM
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: [HC] Race Balance Reply with quote

Has anyone taking a stab at pricing out the races in the Horror Companion according to guidelines in SWD or FC?

I realize that a precise rating is not possible since many of these races have abilities that are very different than the standard options. But it's pretty obvious that these races are of vastly different power levels and I'm curious roughly how great the discrepancy is. Like, is vampire, with all its built-in hindrances, comparable to werewolf? How does angel stack up? Are we talking "just a point or two off," or "not even in the same league?" Etc.

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kronovan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you wondering about racial creation cost or combat ratings? If its the latter, if you post some of you horror setting PC's character stats I can give you the comparison of how they stack up against the 2 different vampires and the werewolf in the creature section.
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77IM
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Race creation costs.

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kronovan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

77IM wrote:
Race creation costs.

-- 77IM


Ah, OK. I haven't had any players play as Children of the Night, so I have really looked into that. A +/- ranking for abilities similar to SWD really would have been nice. I also have IZ which has a similar system for Hybrids, so I might take a stab at coming up with something based on how it works for those 2. Whether you have the abilities costing or not, you can always get a ball park for game balance by creating such a PC and then deriving the combat rating.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd been curious about that too, when I saw the new races. What follows is my own best estimate of the relative values. Note that many of these abilities have no PC race pricing equivalent.

Angel +13 total
Toughness +4 = +8
Faith d6 = +1
Flight 24" = +3
Strength d12 = +4
Healing = +1
Warriors of Heaven = -4

Demon: +7 total
Immunities = +2
Infernal stamina = +2
Resistant = +4
Weakness = -1

Dhampyr: +3 total
Sense Vampire = +2
Strength = +2
Weakness = -1 (minor phobia of Sunlight)

Patchwork Man: +9 total
Death's Haze = -2
Parts = +7
Rage = +2
Undead = +4
Weakness = -2

Phantom: +9 total
Affect Physical = +2
Ethereal = +6
Invisible = +3
Weakness = -2

Vampire: +2 total (a lot of weaknesses)
Claws = +1
Feed = -2
Damned = +5
Undead = +4
Garlic = -1
Sunlight = -3
Unwelcome Guest = -1
Wood = -1

Werewolf: +4 total
Bite & Claws = +1
Fear -2 = +3
Madness = -3
Infection = +0
Invulnerability = +5
Infravision = +1
Weakness = -1
Tranformation Required = -2

Zombie: +2 total
Feast = -2
Undead = +4
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kronovan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work Valhalla. Smile I'm going to play with a few builds using those rankings.
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77IM
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks ValhallaGH -- that gives me a lot to think about. In particular, I'm surprised to see Vampire and Werewolf rate relatively low due to all the hindrances.

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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also interested in pricing the HC races, although it's not easy (which is why I considered a more generic approach). In particular, I've a few observations about the prices listed above:

ValhallaGH wrote:
Flight 24" = +3

Flight at base pace is +2.

In NE, Flight at base pace is 2PP, 2x pace is 4PP and 4x pace is 6PP. While the systems are obviously very different, I still think it provides a reasonable indication of the relative value of increased pace.

So I would probably price 24" flight at +6.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Strength d12 = +4

Strength d6 is +2, d8 is +3. So I'd consider d12 to be at least +6. Otherwise increasing Vigor would cost half the price of increasing Toughness.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Infernal stamina = +2

It's the same as a seasoned edge, so I'd price it at +3.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Resistant = +4
Weakness = -1

Isn't that basically the same as complete immunity from the SPC? That's 16PP.

Not sure how I'd value that as a racial ability, but I'd make Weakness -2, the same as the major hindrance of the same name - it doubles the damage from one type of attack, which would counteract the half damage from immunity, exactly the same as the weakness in the HC.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Damned = +5

Strength and Vigor start at d8, that's +3 each, for a total of +6.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Undead = +4

Undead gives the same bonuses as Construct (which is +2), and +2 Toughness (which is +2 per point), so that should really be +6.

Although personally I think Construct should cost +12:

Combat Reflexes: +3
Ignore called shots: +1
Nerves of Steel + Improved (twice): +6
Immune to disease: +1
Immune to poison: +1

Which would then put Undead at +16.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Invulnerability = +5
Weakness = -1

I don't know how to price this one, but I'd say it's way more than +5. I also wouldn't assign a price to the weakness - invulnerability always has a weakness, it's part of the ability. Without a weakness they simply couldn't be killed.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Different strokes for different folks.

Angel:
Flight is powerful. Period. Getting pace 24" is great, but functionally it's not any different from having Pace 12". But I'm making an educated guess on this one.
Strength d12, but nothing says you can take it any higher (unlike the +3 Strength d8 ability, which raises the cap to d12+2). So, you're strong but you're also maxed out, making it very powerful but not overwhelmingly powerful. Certainly not a +6 level of ability (equivalent to 3 free edges).

Demons:
Infernal Stamina is basically Combat Reflexes, though it can stack. +3 is perfectly reasonable for it.
Resistant is not the same as Complete Immunity. Note that it only applies to mundane damage, not magic (unlike SPC Immunity).
Iron can be pretty easy to get in campaigns. It can be incredibly difficult, too. Depends upon the GM.

Vampire:
Damned, again, has no effect upon the caps, unlike the +3 racial feature. Which means your vampire can't be any stronger than my human, he just gets there faster. Still, +2 steps to Strength and Vigor is a big advantage, easily worth 2.5 points each.
Undead provides more benefits than Construct does (a +2 racial ability, regardless of how accurate a valuation you consider that). I'm assuming that both abilities have assumed RP limitations built into them that cheapen them significantly, which is why I went with +4 for undead.

Werewolf:
Invulnerability is incredibly stout, to a point. However, it explicitly says Weapons, which means magic and energy attacks should work just fine (werewolf + flamethrower = barbeque Cool ). But you can always kill a werewolf when he's a human, so your second point is invalid (they've got none of their racial stuff while in human form).


Summary:
I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just saying that there's a lot of details to consider that your analysis overlooked (and a couple that I seem to have overlooked). Embarassed
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Flight is powerful. Period. Getting pace 24" is great, but functionally it's not any different from having Pace 12". But I'm making an educated guess on this one.

Well Pace 10" is also a +2 ability, the same as Flight. So by the race creation guidelines, even flight at 10" would be +4.

Now you could reasonably argue that the pace should be higher if it only applies to flight, but even then I would consider 12-14" flight more reasonable for a +4 ability. 24" is really fast.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Strength d12, but nothing says you can take it any higher (unlike the +3 Strength d8 ability, which raises the cap to d12+2). So, you're strong but you're also maxed out, making it very powerful but not overwhelmingly powerful. Certainly not a +6 level of ability (equivalent to 3 free edges).

Increasing your Strength from d4 to d12 would normally cost 4 advances - the equivalent of 4 free edges - and it's something you could normally only do once per rank. So I really wouldn't consider +6 unreasonable, particularly as SW doesn't have dump stats.

However I do find it rather odd that they can't increase their Strength further, and I wonder if that might be an oversight. Angels and vampires are often portrayed in fiction as being supernaturally strong, but if their strength is capped at d12 they'd never be able to go beyond human limits.

Also, as I pointed out before, +4 Toughness is priced at +8. +4 Vigor gives +4 Toughness for free (up to d12), as well as helping Soak rolls, etc.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Resistant is not the same as Complete Immunity. Note that it only applies to mundane damage, not magic (unlike SPC Immunity).

SPC immunity applies to matter and energy, with one weakness. I was under the impression that magic wasn't covered, but even if it was, it could easily be chosen as that one weakness. Of course that would be pretty severe if magic was common, but that depends on the setting.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Iron can be pretty easy to get in campaigns. It can be incredibly difficult, too. Depends upon the GM.

Indeed, although this is where it gets difficult, as you could make much the same argument about many substances. Page 13 of the HC does have a small section about silver and cold iron though, and both are clearly suboptimal choices for weapons, so I'd argue they're unlikely to come up by accident - much like the Weakness and Power Negation hindrances in NE, they're the sort of things an NPC would generally only use when they're actively hunting you and know what you are.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Undead provides more benefits than Construct does (a +2 racial ability, regardless of how accurate a valuation you consider that). I'm assuming that both abilities have assumed RP limitations built into them that cheapen them significantly, which is why I went with +4 for undead.

As I mentioned, mechnically speaking Undead is identical to Construct except that it also gets +2 Toughness, which is a further +4 ability. I wouldn't feel comfortable making "RP limitations" a -2 penalty without clearly spelling out what it means - and even then, I'd be worried about generalising undead when there are so many variations of them.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Invulnerability is incredibly stout, to a point. However, it explicitly says Weapons, which means magic and energy attacks should work just fine (werewolf + flamethrower = barbeque Cool ).

I didn't notice the exact wording before, but reading it again it's actually rather ambiguous - they "can only be Shaken by weapons that are not silver". So does that mean non-weapons can hurt them? Or does it mean that only attacks that are both weapons and silver can hurt them? Or something else?

The rules state that "Invulnerable creatures can be Shaken, but they can't be wounded by anything but their Weakness (all such creatures have at least one if not more)".

Vampires in SWD list a series of Weaknesses, each of which obviously bypass the Invulnerability. Werewolves list only "silver weapons". So I would probably interpret that as werewolves being invulnerable to everything other than silver weapons.

ValhallaGH wrote:
But you can always kill a werewolf when he's a human, so your second point is invalid (they've got none of their racial stuff while in human form).

I thought you already covered that with "Tranformation Required = -2"? That's the same as a major hindrance, and the Gimmick major hindrance from NE works in pretty much the same way - you can't use any of your powers unless you shapechange (or drink a potion, eat a pizza, get angry, etc).

ValhallaGH wrote:
I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just saying that there's a lot of details to consider that your analysis overlooked (and a couple that I seem to have overlooked). Embarassed

Sure, agreed, but the more it gets discussed, the fewer things are likely to get overlooked, even if we don't necessarily see eye-to-eye on them. Some of these abilities are really difficult to balance, but if we can come up with reasonable pricings for them it should be possible to design new supernatural creatures, as well as balance the existing ones against each other for mixed groups.
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farik
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it difficult to calculate all of the HC races because they all have an inherent flaw with a varying value. Namely how easily and how important it is that they can conceal their nature. It sepcifies that werewolves have to transform but do vampires look inhuman when they use their powers (the standard monster face phenomenon). Are the Patchwork Men covered in obvious stitching or appear assembled in some other obvious way? Do demons freak out all animals?

Not to mention the variable severity of some of the listed flaws. Do angels get really limiting instructions like "you cannot use your powers against mortals" and "How clever is the werewolf on the night of the full moon?".

Personally I assume these variables are there as leeway for the GM to balance out the races. More specifically if normal humans in the party can't keep pace in effectiveness with equipment or other social benefits then these flaws should be ramped up in intensity.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

farik wrote:
I find it difficult to calculate all of the HC races because they all have an inherent flaw with a varying value. Namely how easily and how important it is that they can conceal their nature. It sepcifies that werewolves have to transform but do vampires look inhuman when they use their powers (the standard monster face phenomenon). Are the Patchwork Men covered in obvious stitching or appear assembled in some other obvious way? Do demons freak out all animals?

Actually it does cover that: "Playing a monster is something like playing a race in a fantasy Savage Setting. The character starts with powers and abilities and may then be customized with Edges and Hindrances that make her unique within her kind."

So a Buffyverse vampire with the bumpy face might take Outsider, a Patchwork Man with obvious stitching could take Ugly, etc. Actually the Dark Secret hindrance from RoC could probably be applied to most of the monstrous races in many settings.

farik wrote:
Not to mention the variable severity of some of the listed flaws. Do angels get really limiting instructions like "you cannot use your powers against mortals" and "How clever is the werewolf on the night of the full moon?".

The precise commands the angels are given would depend on the GM and the setting I imagine, but the werewolf is covered pretty explicitly - you become a bloodthirsty monster under the control of the GM, and go around eating people. You'll eat strangers and enemies rather than friends, if given the choice, but that's about the extent of your control.

farik wrote:
Personally I assume these variables are there as leeway for the GM to balance out the races. More specifically if normal humans in the party can't keep pace in effectiveness with equipment or other social benefits then these flaws should be ramped up in intensity.

They're not designed to be balanced with each other, let alone with regular mortals. The Horror Companion stresses that "monsters are often far more powerful than normal humans", and further points out that "not all monsters are created equal".

The HC is one of my favourite SW books, filled with some superb content, but the monstrous races was one thing I would have liked to have seen fleshed out a bit more. However to be fair it's only a 3-page section, and it's perfectly fine for non-mixed campaigns.
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farik
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad you find the section clear cut but personally I don't find it so simple.

Other races are balanced so I would like to think the races in the Horror companion could be balanced as well either in their current form or by identifying other flaws that would need to be enforced in order to help balance them out.

I agree the werewolf gives a good basic guideline but as a GM I see some grey in the description it would describe both a rabid wild animal and Mr Jeckyl. One will rely on blind rage and strength (easy to lock up) the other will use cunning and cruelty to hunt it's prey and escape (if you lock yourself in a vault your wolf will still know the combination to escape and remember the charity benefit invite you declined).
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

farik wrote:
Other races are balanced so I would like to think the races in the Horror companion could be balanced as well either in their current form or by identifying other flaws that would need to be enforced in order to help balance them out.

It would have been nice if they'd been balanced, and even better if there'd been some sort of pricing guideline for monstrous racial abilities, but sadly that's not the case. ValhallaGH's breakdown is pretty good, but my personal interpretation is a little different:

Angel: +20 total
Toughness +4 = +8
Faith d6 = +1
Flight 24" = +6
Strength d12 = +6
Healing = +1
Warriors of Heaven = -2

Demon: +18 total
Immunities = +1
Infernal stamina = +3
Resistant = +16
Weakness = -2

Dhampyr: +2 total
Sense Vampire = +1
Strength = +2
Weakness = -1

Patchwork Man: +14/+23 total
Death's Haze = -2
Parts = +10
Rage = +2
Undead = +6/+15
Weakness = -2

Phantom: +13 total
Affect Physical = +5 (Ghost-striker)
Ethereal = +5 (Intangibility)
Invisible = +5
Weakness = -2

Vampire: +5/+14 total
Claws = +1
Feed = -2
Damned = +6
Undead = +6/+15
Garlic = -1
Sunlight = -3
Unwelcome Guest = -1
Wood = -1

Werewolf: +16 total
Bite & Claws = +1
Fear -2 = +3
Madness = -3
Infection = +0
Invulnerability = +16
Infravision = +1
Tranformation Required = -2 (Gimmick)

Zombie: +4/+13 total
Feast = -2
Undead = +6/+15

The +6 price for Undead is based on the Construct ability (+2) and +2 Toughness (+4). The alternative +15 price is based my breakdown of the actual bonuses, as follows:

Combat Reflexes: +3
Ignore called shots: +1
Nerves of Steel + Improved (twice): +6
Immune to disease and poison: +1
+2 Toughness: +4

So based on the above, I would allow someone to play a Dhampyr in a mixed group with regular humans, or even turn the "Dhampyr" package into a background edge. But I wouldn't allow the others to be used without some major nerfing. For example:

Angel: +2 total
Faith d6 = +1
Flight 6" = +2
Healing = +1
Warriors of Heaven = -2

Demon: +2 total
Immunities = +1
Infernal stamina = +3
Weakness = -2

Werewolf: +2 total
Bite & Claws = +1
Fear (no penalty) = +1
Madness = -3
Infection = +0
+4 Toughness = +8
Double damage from silver = -2
Infravision = +1
Tranformation Required = -2 (Gimmick)
Dark Secret = -2 (from RoC)

They're going to be heavily watered down though. This is really the sort of thing I designed Supernaturalis for, here are a few examples of how it handles supernatural archetypes like the above:

Demon

Attributes: Agility d6, Smarts d6, Spirit d6, Strength d12, Vigor d8
Skills: Fighting d6*, Notice d6, Intimidation d6, +9 additional skill points
Charisma: 8/-10; Pace: 8; Parry: 5*; Dodge: 4*; Toughness: 10; Willpower: 5
Hindrances: Bloodthirsty (Major), Alien Anatomy (Major), Outsider (Minor), Ugly (Minor)
Edges: Arcane Background (Supernaturalis), Armour Proficiency, Terrifying Presence
Equipment: Light armour fashioned from human bones
Primal Edges:
Immortality
Regeneration
Special Movement (Flight) + Improved Special Movement
-Detectable: large bat-like wings
Growth + Growth (Large)
-Permanent: You're always Large
Natural Weapon (claws d8) + Venomous + Touch Attack
-Requires Activation: Retractable claws
-Detectable: Long black claws glistening with venom

Werewolf

Attributes: Agility d6, Smarts d6, Spirit d6, Strength d6, Vigor d6
Skills: Fighting d6, Notice d6, Survival d6, +9 additional skill points
Charisma: 4; Pace: 6; Parry: 5; Dodge: 4; Toughness: 5; Willpower: 5
Hindrances: Bloodthirsty, plus one Major and two Minor
Edges: Arcane Background (Supernaturalis)
Equipment: Clothing, dagger: Str+d4, 1 AP
Primal Edges:
Immortality
Alternate Form + Skin-Walker
-Unreliable: Requires a Spirit roll to activate
-Involuntary Activation: You automatically transform on a full moon
-Detectable: The transformation is very loud and messy
Regeneration + Enhanced Regeneration
Supernatural Sense (Enhanced Smell)

Alternate Form (Large wolf)

Attributes: Agility d8, Smarts d4, Spirit d6, Strength d12+2, Vigor d8
Skills: Fighting d8*, Intimidation d6, Notice d6
Charisma: 4/-6; Pace: 10; Parry: 6*; Dodge: 4*; Toughness: 10; Willpower: 5
Hindrances: Bloodthirsty, Disturbing Diet (human flesh), Naked (Major), No Hands, No Speech, Vulnerability (Major, silver)
Edges: Arcane Background (Supernaturalis), Berserk, Fleet-Footed
Abilities: Go for the Throat, Large*, Low Light Vision, Claws and fangs (Str+d8)

* You suffer -2 Parry, Dodge and Fighting rolls when fighting Medium opponents.

Wraith

Attributes: Agility d6, Smarts d6, Spirit d6, Strength d6, Vigor d6
Skills: Fighting d6, Notice d6, Intimidation d6, +9 additional skill points
Charisma: ; Pace: 6; Parry: 5; Dodge: 4; Toughness: 5; Willpower: 5
Hindrances: Disembodied (Minor), Vulnerability (Minor, holy items), Unhealing (Major) plus two Minor
Edges: Arcane Background (Supernaturalis), Brave, Fearless
Equipment: None
Primal Edges:
Immortality + Invulnerability
Dimensional Phasing (all physical damage types except salt) + Dimensional Merging
-Unreliable: Requires a Spirit roll to activate
-Burnout: If you roll 1 on the Spirit die, you can't intentionally use the power for the rest of the scene
-Detectable: You look translucent and ghostly, and your voice echoes hollowly
-Involuntary Activation: The power activates automatically at night
-Conditional: You can't activate the power while exposed to direct sunlight
Mind Control + Sentient Control + Possession (only) + Manifestation
-Feedback: Shaken if the body you possess is killed, make a Vigor roll or suffer a wound as well
-Limitation: Doesn't work on animals, only on sentient creatures
Regeneration + Regrowth + Enhanced Regeneration
-Linked (Mind Control): You only regenerate while possessing someone
-Detectable: The victim looks extremely pale and sick as you feed off their life-force
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PencilBoy99
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did any of you come up with a pricing for the monstrous abilities in the Horror Companion for PC horror races? We can assume they're balanced only against each-other, not a normal Human. The use case would be making World of Darkness style characters.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

furashgf wrote:
Did any of you come up with a pricing for the monstrous abilities in the Horror Companion for PC horror races?

What? You mean Demon? Yeah, it has come up.

Everything else is already covered in one resource or another.
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