Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[StormKnight]

Ok, I got curious on odds here. The chance of of 2d8 taking down a toughness 5 is 56.25%, so the odds of all 3 shots taking down a foe are about 18%. Not so hot. So about a 5% chance of this happening - a bit better than Clint calculated, but still a lot more of an unlikely event than I thought. (Technically a bit better than that since you could get a raise on the attack roll, but I'm up too late to calculate that right now).

[Zadmar]

[tigerguy786]

[Clint]

[StormKnight]

You know, I'm really surprised at the kickback I'm getting on this. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the system. Guns being deadly and range being a big advantage is realistic and quite appropriate for many genres. I'd think an awful lot of Deadlands characters would be pretty annoyed if they could't hit with their six shooters! 

While there's been a lot of discussion on the single example I gave, that was really just a random illustrative comment. Guns have longer range, higher damage and lower base to hit numbers than melee weapons. That's all there was to it. From some of the comments on here, you'd get the idea that having long range is no advantage at all.

Not being able to close on someone with a gun is quite realistic. In real warfare, if you want to get in close, you better have suppressive fire or the numbers to take casualties on the way there. Or you have a big tactical or terrain advantage

That said, Zadmars comment about movement rates illuminates something. We aren't using minis or a board. So we aren't thinking in terms of "goon 1 starts its turn in cover here, then sprints 9 inches to get into melee without getting shot, despite those 9 inches being out in the open". We're thinking "there's a good chunk of open space here, so they won't be in cover crossing that space". We're picturing the action real-time rather than turn based, which leads to a different perspective.

By the way, saying the genre was 'martial arts' may be a little inaccurate. I don't mean so much Jet Li, Jackie Chan as...err...I don't know a good example. Maybe think Big Trouble in Little China? (I haven't seen that in ages, so that comparison could be way off )Or, if you know it, think of the Shadowfist CCG or the Feng Shui RPG, which this game is based on. The general points being that fighting unarmed is a valid option even against armed foes, and armament is more of a style detail than anything else.

Also I was corrected by my player last night. She didn't take down three with one volley. She took down 2 and shook the leader. The third one went down next round.

The leader, a big nasty brute, did take the 'portable cover' approach after he recovered - he tore the door off a car to use as a shield.

At any rate, for me it's now kind of a moot point with this game. The focus has just sort of shifted to being more gun and firefight oriented, and we're having a great time, so no stress.

Though I am a bit curious as to why the "use mind for ranged defense" is considered a great idea while "add +1 to many ranged defenses" is considered a bad idea when the results are very similar and the flat +1 is less of a change in most cases.

Clint:oops! I wasn't referring to the extra attack, but the extra die size. Step? What do you call it? Your fighter had a d8 fighting while I was looking at a d6.

Regarding 'tricks' and such stuff: this is purely a personal preference, but that sort of thing is for PCs and major NPCs, and not normally something extras do. Especially not when the extras are savage beasts/zombies/simple minded demons and such.

[Dracones]

[ValhallaGH]

[Zadmar]

[StormKnight]

[Clint]

[StormKnight]

[77IM]

Yeah, I think instead of downgrading guns, you need to upgrade melee attacks. Upgrading movement would help too. Both are appropriate to a kung-fu genre game.

* For melee attacks, I'd give everyone more damage. Maybe cut the Called Shot penalties in half for melee attacks! Also allow Called Shots to cause effects like a knockdown or push. This gives skilled melee fighters more options. I'd give everybody Martial Artist too. This may sound powerful, but compared to an M16 on 3RB (+2 attack, 2d8+2 damage) it's really not.

* For movement, some sort of wire-fu is appropriate. As a simple version, increase base movement rate and make jumping, running up walls, etc. simply count as "difficult terrain." You can also play with the idea of making a moving character harder to shoot. (In the core, things moving faster than 10" can qualify for a penalty to hit them.)

-- 77IM
_________________
Stuff I made: Arcane Abilities · Talent Edge · Savage Fading Suns · Savage Wuxia!

[sablemage]

My experience has been that numbers and tactics count. If the NPCs work together, use suppressive fire, flanking, pick their terrain to get The Drop and so on, they can give the PCs a run for their money.

In melee, a combination of gang-up bonuses and wild attacks works well. None of this martial arts etiquette one on one duel business.

[77IM]

Here's a rule I thunk up for a modern kung-fu setting to balance unarmed combat. (And yes, this just an edge from Clint's Modern Martial Arts, turned into a setting rule. I think all good ideas can ultimately be traced back to Clint.)

• No Unarmed Defender rule.
  
• Unarmed attacks deal Str+Fighting damage. You get full Fighting die even if it exceeds Strength.
  
• You can also deal Str+Fighting damage with melee weapons if that would be higher than the regular weapon damage.
  
  This means that the only reasons to use melee weapons is a) because you have low fighting or b) because the weapon gives you some special trait like reach or Parry +1. To prevent everyone from using rapiers all the time, I'd create a variety of weapons with minor bonuses using Zadmar's Savage Armory.

The net effect is that Fighting attacks deal a lot more damage, comparable (and often better) than ranged weapons. Melee weapons would still be useful, but not required, since they're only a minor bonus.

-- 77IM
_________________
Stuff I made: Arcane Abilities · Talent Edge · Savage Fading Suns · Savage Wuxia!

[ValhallaGH]