Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[ogbendog]

From the two-handed weapon thread:

[Clash957]

Really I think it depends on the other Agility skills the players wants more than how good of fighter the player wants. A clumsy fighter (Agility d4) could last a long time if the player relys on his opponents not performing many Agility tricks. Even in that case, the clumsy fighter could spend bennies or have combat reflexes to help out.

Example in a “Born A Hero” game:
Big, Dumb Barbarian
Novice (0 XP): Ag: d4, Sm: d4, Sp: d6, St: d10, Vi: d8
Parry: 8 (7) Tough: 7 (1)
Hindrances: Code of Honor, Illiterate, Outsider
Skills: Fighting d12
Edges: Berserk, Combat Reflexes
Gear: Greatsword, Leather Armor

While the character might be uneducated, fighting smart with this barbarian makes him a potential power house.

In initiative, if he is dealt face cards the barbarian strikes with terrible power especially if he uses Rapid Attack, and Wild Attack (Savage Attack) three Extras are typically off the board and even powerful wild cards are usually hurt. If any survive, the barbarian relies on his high toughness to weather the rest of the round.

If the barbarian has a lower initiative if might be best to go on hold and have all of the opponents strike then unload his massive Savage Attack and hope for a high initiative next round or his high Toughness carrying him through.

The player knows he will fail Tricks and Taunts, but he also knows with Combat Reflexes or Bennies he shouldn’t lose too many rounds to being shaken. The character also doesn’t rely on his Parry to avoid damage rather Toughness (especially with Berserk). All in all, a classic Barbarian archetype character that has massive strengths and massive weaknesses.

This is basically a PC in my Solomon Kane game. He destroys most opponents in the same round he attacks them. The other players know that after his Savage Attack he is vulnerable and will often guard him until he recovers.
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Playing: Deadlands Noir, Planescape via D&D 4th ed
Running: Nothing at the moment

[Clint]

[Sidney]

[ogbendog]

I would think that starting with a skill more than one level above the governing attribute as a novice is to expensive.

[Pariah74]

[ogbendog]

right, I could see a d8. but a d10 seemed a bit excessive

[Pariah74]

Well he says he wants them for skills, but I would wonder which ones. If you're the "melee" guy in a traditional fantasy dungeon delve type situation, your skills should be (in order of priority IMO) Fighting (obviously), Notice (to avoid surprise), Throwing (for a back up weapon), Intimidation/Taunt (for Tests of Will and Tricks), Climbing (cuz you always need it), and maybe some Knowledge Battle if you want to be a leader type guy.

Riding, Stealth, Boating, Driving, and even Shooting are all pretty superfluous if you ask me...depending on the setting of course.

d6 Agility would be good enough for sure. Break my rule and start with d8 fighting and raise it with advances to d10/d12 by the time you reach Seasoned. All the good combat edges are at Seasoned anyway.
A d12 Fighting with Block with a Shield is a Tank.
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"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax

[ogbendog]

yeah. I figure, sure, you could use a d6 shooting or throwing, I'd have a d4 or d6 stealth, but you don't need more than that.

[77IM]

Mathematically, if all you care about is ONE skill, and don't care about other skills or about the attribute itself, then it's more efficient to increase that skill way past the attribute and keep the attribute low. (Each skill die step will cost 1 advance, vs. the 1.5 advances you'd spend increasing the attribute and then the skill.)

If you care about multiple skills, then it's more efficient to increase the attribute first and then increase your skills up to the attribute limit. (Each way costs 2 advances per skill die increase. Increasing past the attribute limit, costs 1 advance per skill step -- if you have 2 skills you want to improve, that's 2 advances per skill die size. Staying under the limit, you spend 1 advance increasing the attribute and then 1 increasing both skills -- so it's still 2 advances per skill die size. BUT, as a bonus, you've now also increased your attribute die size.)

Of course, staying under the attribute limit slows your skill advancement a bit, since you can only improve one attribute per rank. But this isn't usually an issue, since once you hit d8 or so, you should be able to start spending advances on edges that give a +1 or +2 -- which is way better than a die size increase.

-- 77IM
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Stuff I made: Arcane Abilities · Talent Edge · Savage Fading Suns · Savage Wuxia!

[Theta]

Better for dark fantasy

Mark: child soldier/forced conversion

“I am honored by the pain I am given”

Race: Posthuman
Age: 16
Sex: male
Class: see above
Family: Unknown

St D6+2
Sm D4 (while far from stupid mark’s mind has been heavily altered)
Ad D4
Sp D6
Vd D12

Noble (combination of mind altering magic and airborne chemicals)
Brawny (reinforced body)
AB: Miracles (combination of forbidden magic and soul eating)

Plate corselet
Fireproof Large shield
Katana
Advanced Survival kit
Fireproof silken clothing
Armored gloves designed to keep a grip on sword and shield
Transmogrifying harness (provided by noble)
The harness wraps around the wearers neck and torso. It is very resistant to damage, giving the wearer the effects of being constantly berserk (although the source is love and bodily and spiritual modification, not rage) but at a great cost. The harness also prevents accidental striking of controller and allows the Sharing of beneficial magical effects with the wearer’s controller. The Wearer CAN perform thought out actions if they benefit his controller (i.e. persuading the villagers to not try to kill him)

Loyal (even if beaten, tortured, raped, maimed or otherwise abused, mark still loves his master. His love is less conditional than love for a parent or god.)
Cautious (For controller)
Death wish
Vow
Heroic
Deeply flawed
Delusional: Various

Bless: If used on self puts chemical production and magic into overdrive, can also be used to arrange body to the controller’s whims. With enough time a conversion can even switch gender. If used on others pours part of his soul into another, supercharging there emotions and spiritual resilience, both are accompanied by a strong feeling of awareness and purpose and the ability to absorb souls, either healing one wound or giving the user 2 power points per wound deal to a creature with a soul through the same fire used in mark’s burst. Marks version is self onlyas a free action. Through His harness he benefits his master.

Burst: summons a large amount of hellfire of impossible color and hue that burns the soul of the target, purifying it into its base and feeding it back to the user. Ignores non-organic material, as long as some part of the template is within one foot of Mark it doesn’t matter where it starts. If surrounded he usually calls down hellfire around him burning everything including himself he’ll even use it around his master shunting the pain from the fire to himself while feeding his master the purest parts of the purified souls or failing that his soul. For every wound inflicted on a target with a soul (such as a horse, dog or man nothing smaller than a kitten, unless there are a lot of them.) the user gains either heals one wound or gains 2 power points.

Fighting D12
Notice D6
Faith D6
Persuasion D4

Toughness 17 (11)
Pace 6

Charisma 2
Parry 8
Power points 10

Mark can regenerate very quickly, although doing so is very damaging to his soul and so he usually reserves for severe maiming or death. Provided a small piece of flesh can be salvaged a part of him can live on. His controller generally copies his soul into a pseudo phylactery where the shattered remains of the original can be partially rewritten should the need arise although it is a copy of the soul not the original as a true phylactery would use, and copying a copy of a copy has horrifying implications. A kind master (from a “normal” perspective Mark knows that his master loves him no matter how he is treated) would be wary of this.

Mark counts as a fanatic and can take hits for those he protects.

Additional notes on Mark's berserk

Bonuses and penalties to melee damage, fighting rolls, and parry come from his non defensive fighting style and lack of fear and need for safety, his extra strength comes from fine tuning, and his pain resistance comes from rewiring the brain to count pain as pleasing or (usually) mild as set by his controller, his controller however has no problem hurting him as badly as they want to hurt them as they determine what he feels (abuse of conversions is, unfortunately, very common).

On a final note spelling and grammatical errors everywhere and if you don't use the deeply flawed hindrance, drop vigor to d10. Oh and this character isn't completely minmaxed but it still really isn't very balanced.

[kronovan]

The other big factor besides to-hit probability and damage from strength for any melee PC -heck any PC for that matter- is their Parry. I personally don't like having any non-AB PC's in a melee-heavy setting with a parry below 5. For a melee-dedictated PC I'll spend the extra point(s) to advance their Fighting skill to at least d8 if their Agility is only d6. An average beat-stick extra with d6 Fighting has a decent enough challenge landing a hit against a PC with 5 parry, but the 6 parry that a d8 Fighting grants makes it a significant challenge.

On that note, I'm not too bothered about only advancing a melee PC's Agility to d6 if they're not taking a lot of other Agility linked skills.

[ogbendog]

that's what they made shields, spears, and staffs for.

a starting PC with a d6 fighting and a +1 parry item has a 6, which isn't bad.

[kronovan]