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Soulliard
Novice
Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 80
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 Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: Alternate Equipment Rules |
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I will add my standard disclaimer before explaining this house rule:
1- This is what I think would work best for my games, based on my experiences GMing. I wouldn't recommend the changes for everyone.
2- I prefer to emphasize fun over realism. I don't mind a rule being a bit silly if you stop to think about it, as long as everyone's having a blast at the table.
I'll be running a 1940s pulp campaign soon, and I'm planning on introducing a rule I started working on a while back. I don't like tracking wealth (and neither do the players), especially in more modern settings where regular incomes and banking are more relevant. This rule is intended to simplify and abstract wealth.
Items are divided into two categories: Standard and Superior.
Standard items are commonly available and affordable. These items are freely available to characters, as long as they are in town. Standard items include items like food, lodging, travel gear, and civilian weapons (including handguns and hunting rifles). Depending on the setting, things like horses and cell phones may also be considered standard items.
Superior items are not readily available for purchase. Receiving a superior item costs a single advance, representing the expenditure of resources needed to purchase or otherwise retrieve it. Superior items include body armor, military weapons, small vehicles, and rare, high-tech equipment.
Very expensive items like helicopters and tanks may cost multiple advances to purchase, if they are even made available at all.
GMs may also give players superior items for free as the story allows.
Here's the new equipment list I came up with:
| Code: |
Armor Bonus Wt Type Notes
Ammo Belt - 5 - Includes a lifetime supply of ammo/thrown weapons
Light Vest +1 5 Torso
Light Armor +1 10 Full Body
Small Shield - 5 Shield Provides Light Cover
Superior Armor Bonus Wt Type Notes
Mail +2 20 Full Body
Breastplate +3 20 Torso
Full Plate +3 40 Full Body
Ballistic Vest +1 15 Torso +3 additional armor against firearms
Ballistic Armor +1 30 Full Body +3 additional armor against firearms
Large Shield - 10 Shield Provides Medium Cover
Melee Weapons Range Damage Wt 2H Notes
Tiny Weapon 6 +d4 1 -2 to be Noticed if hidden
Parrying Weapon - +d4 2 Parry +1
Whip - +d4 2 Reach 1
Small Weapon 4 +d6 2
Medium Weapon - +d8 5 +1 damage if used in 2 hands
Large Weapon - +d10+1 10 X
Huge Weapon - +d12 15 X Heavy Weapon
Staff - +d4 5 X Parry +2, Reach 1
Spear 4 +d6 5 X Parry +1, Reach 1
Polearm - +d8 10 X Parry +1, Reach 1
Pike - +d8 15 X Reach 2
Superior Melee Notes
Quality Weapon +2 Damage over standard weapon
Ranged Weapons Range Damage AP Min Str Shots Wt 2H Notes
Sling 8 2d4 - - - 1 Free Reload
Shortbow 12 2d6 - d6 - 2 X Free Reload
Longbow 16 2d8 - d8 - 5 X Free Reload
Crossbow 16 2d8 - d6 1 10 X
Light Pistol 12 2d6 1 - 6 2 Melee, -2 to be Noticed if hidden
Heavy Pistol 16 2d6+1 1 d6 7 5 Melee
Rifle 24 2d6+1 2 d6 8 10 X
Sniper Rifle 30 2d6+1 2 d6 5 10 X Scope, Snapfire
Sawed-Off Shotgun 4 1-3d6 - d6 2 5 Shotgun, +2 Attack, Melee
Shotgun 8 1-3d6 - d6 6 10 X Shotgun, +2 Attack
Machine Pistol 12 2d4+1 1 d6 30 5 Auto 3, Melee
Sub Machine Gun 16 2d6 1 d6 50 10 X Auto 3
Superior Ranged Range Damage AP Min Str Shots Wt 2H Notes
Quality Shortbow 12 2d6+2 - d6 - 2 X Free Reload
Quality Longbow 16 2d8+2 - d8 - 5 X Free Reload
Repeating Crossbow 16 2d8 - d6 5 10 X
Anti-Tank Rifle 30 2d8+1 4 d8 5 20 X Scope, Snapfire, HW
Assault Rifle 24 2d6+1 2 d6 30 10 X Auto 3
Machine Gun 24 2d6+1 2 d8 200 20 X Auto 4, Snapfire
Grenade 6 2d6 4 - - 1 M Burst, HW, Thrown
Grenade Launcher 12 2d6 4 d6 1 15 X M Burst, Snapfire, HW
Rocket Launcher 24 2d8 4 d8 1 20 X M Burst, Snapfire, HW
Flamethrower Cone 2d8 4 d8 5 25 X Flamethrower, Reload 5
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Here are some other problems I wanted to solve at the same time:
- Equipment is more generalized. I've always thought Savage Worlds was too abstract a system to represent minute differences between gun models, and this wealth system makes the distinctions even more unnecessary.
- Keeping track of ammo is fairly pointless with the abstract wealth system. The ammo belt further simplifies things.
- I made another house rule where shields provide cover. The effect is basically the same, but it keeps the rules a bit more consistent.
- Ballistic armor is a bit less effective against non-firearms. This makes non-firearms a more interesting choice.
- 2-Handed melee weapons were improved a bit. The parry penalty and inability to use a shield seemed like a pretty high cost for just a tiny damage boost.
- Grenades, rockets and flamethrowers are toned down a bit. This makes them more balanced as regular weapons. It's a bit unrealistic, yes, but it lets players use the big toys without destroying the game balance.
- Strength requirements and weights are made a more significant issue, making strength a less tempting dump stat. |
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The Dread Polack
Seasoned
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 395
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Not bad. I like the rules I've seen in systems like Burning Wheel/Mouse Guard, D20 Moder, and Fate.
Spending an entire advance on a piece of gear seems pretty harsh to me, but maybe I'd have to actually try it. Have you thought about using a die-roll mechanic for obtainting gear instead?
For instance, characters could default to a d6 Resources, d4 for Poor, d8 for Rich, d10 for filthy rich. When they want to obtain a piece of gear, they roll against a difficulty determined by the cost/availability of the item. This could be modified by the situation.
This sort of rule seems to work pretty well in other systems, I think it would work well here. |
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robert4818
Heroic
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 1048
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Alternate Equipment Rules |
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| Soulliard wrote: | I will add my standard disclaimer before explaining this house rule:
1- This is what I think would work best for my games, based on my experiences GMing. I wouldn't recommend the changes for everyone.
2- I prefer to emphasize fun over realism. I don't mind a rule being a bit silly if you stop to think about it, as long as everyone's having a blast at the table.
I'll be running a 1940s pulp campaign soon, and I'm planning on introducing a rule I started working on a while back. I don't like tracking wealth (and neither do the players), especially in more modern settings where regular incomes and banking are more relevant. This rule is intended to simplify and abstract wealth.
Items are divided into two categories: Standard and Superior.
Standard items are commonly available and affordable. These items are freely available to characters, as long as they are in town. Standard items include items like food, lodging, travel gear, and civilian weapons (including handguns and hunting rifles). Depending on the setting, things like horses and cell phones may also be considered standard items.
Superior items are not readily available for purchase. Receiving a superior item costs a single advance, representing the expenditure of resources needed to purchase or otherwise retrieve it. Superior items include body armor, military weapons, small vehicles, and rare, high-tech equipment.
Very expensive items like helicopters and tanks may cost multiple advances to purchase, if they are even made available at all.
GMs may also give players superior items for free as the story allows.
Here's the new equipment list I came up with:
| Code: |
Armor Bonus Wt Type Notes
Ammo Belt - 5 - Includes a lifetime supply of ammo/thrown weapons
Light Vest +1 5 Torso
Light Armor +1 10 Full Body
Small Shield - 5 Shield Provides Light Cover
Superior Armor Bonus Wt Type Notes
Mail +2 20 Full Body
Breastplate +3 20 Torso
Full Plate +3 40 Full Body
Ballistic Vest +1 15 Torso +3 additional armor against firearms
Ballistic Armor +1 30 Full Body +3 additional armor against firearms
Large Shield - 10 Shield Provides Medium Cover
Melee Weapons Range Damage Wt 2H Notes
Tiny Weapon 6 +d4 1 -2 to be Noticed if hidden
Parrying Weapon - +d4 2 Parry +1
Whip - +d4 2 Reach 1
Small Weapon 4 +d6 2
Medium Weapon - +d8 5 +1 damage if used in 2 hands
Large Weapon - +d10+1 10 X
Huge Weapon - +d12 15 X Heavy Weapon
Staff - +d4 5 X Parry +2, Reach 1
Spear 4 +d6 5 X Parry +1, Reach 1
Polearm - +d8 10 X Parry +1, Reach 1
Pike - +d8 15 X Reach 2
Superior Melee Notes
Quality Weapon +2 Damage over standard weapon
Ranged Weapons Range Damage AP Min Str Shots Wt 2H Notes
Sling 8 2d4 - - - 1 Free Reload
Shortbow 12 2d6 - d6 - 2 X Free Reload
Longbow 16 2d8 - d8 - 5 X Free Reload
Crossbow 16 2d8 - d6 1 10 X
Light Pistol 12 2d6 1 - 6 2 Melee, -2 to be Noticed if hidden
Heavy Pistol 16 2d6+1 1 d6 7 5 Melee
Rifle 24 2d6+1 2 d6 8 10 X
Sniper Rifle 30 2d6+1 2 d6 5 10 X Scope, Snapfire
Sawed-Off Shotgun 4 1-3d6 - d6 2 5 Shotgun, +2 Attack, Melee
Shotgun 8 1-3d6 - d6 6 10 X Shotgun, +2 Attack
Machine Pistol 12 2d4+1 1 d6 30 5 Auto 3, Melee
Sub Machine Gun 16 2d6 1 d6 50 10 X Auto 3
Superior Ranged Range Damage AP Min Str Shots Wt 2H Notes
Quality Shortbow 12 2d6+2 - d6 - 2 X Free Reload
Quality Longbow 16 2d8+2 - d8 - 5 X Free Reload
Repeating Crossbow 16 2d8 - d6 5 10 X
Anti-Tank Rifle 30 2d8+1 4 d8 5 20 X Scope, Snapfire, HW
Assault Rifle 24 2d6+1 2 d6 30 10 X Auto 3
Machine Gun 24 2d6+1 2 d8 200 20 X Auto 4, Snapfire
Grenade 6 2d6 4 - - 1 M Burst, HW, Thrown
Grenade Launcher 12 2d6 4 d6 1 15 X M Burst, Snapfire, HW
Rocket Launcher 24 2d8 4 d8 1 20 X M Burst, Snapfire, HW
Flamethrower Cone 2d8 4 d8 5 25 X Flamethrower, Reload 5
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Here are some other problems I wanted to solve at the same time:
- Equipment is more generalized. I've always thought Savage Worlds was too abstract a system to represent minute differences between gun models, and this wealth system makes the distinctions even more unnecessary.
- Keeping track of ammo is fairly pointless with the abstract wealth system. The ammo belt further simplifies things.
- I made another house rule where shields provide cover. The effect is basically the same, but it keeps the rules a bit more consistent.
- Ballistic armor is a bit less effective against non-firearms. This makes non-firearms a more interesting choice.
- 2-Handed melee weapons were improved a bit. The parry penalty and inability to use a shield seemed like a pretty high cost for just a tiny damage boost.
- Grenades, rockets and flamethrowers are toned down a bit. This makes them more balanced as regular weapons. It's a bit unrealistic, yes, but it lets players use the big toys without destroying the game balance.
- Strength requirements and weights are made a more significant issue, making strength a less tempting dump stat. |
My only concern is spending an advance on a superior piece of equipment, and then losing it in the course of the game.
I mean, imagine spending 3 advances to afford a helicopter only to have it hit with a ground to air missile in its first outing... |
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The Dread Polack
Seasoned
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 395
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I would have to assume unless Soulliard is a complete jerk that lost gear can be replaced without spending more advances on it. I would never play in a campaign like that. |
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ValhallaGH
Legendary
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4564
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Man, you just hate guns, almost as much as you hate Kevlar.  (Average firearm damage is less than average longbow damage; except for the shotgun.)
Overall, ranged damage is low and range increments are the same or shorter. Melee damage is actually a touch higher than the core rules; I'm guessing you want to encourage in-character stabbing.
Oddities:
I can use my Buster Sword to kill a tank!? That's insane, awesome, and insane.
Plate armor, especially the breast plate, is the absolute best protection you can buy. The complete removal of AP makes it much more generally useful than Kevlar and almost as protective as Kevlar when being shot. Plus, the full suit is fire-proof.
The scariest guy in the equipment lists? Plate Armor, Huge Weapon, and Sawed-off Shotgun. The d12 strength means he has 2 pounds left for his Zero encumbrance (or 39 if he's Brawny), and he does 3d6 or 2d12 damage with his +3 fire-proof armor.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die." |
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Soulliard
Novice
Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| The Dread Polack wrote: | | I would have to assume unless Soulliard is a complete jerk that lost gear can be replaced without spending more advances on it. I would never play in a campaign like that. |
Yeah, I'm a pretty lenient GM. If a player loses a piece of equipment, they get their advance back. They might not be able to replace their equipment until the end of the adventure, though. 
| Quote: | | Spending an entire advance on a piece of gear seems pretty harsh to me, but maybe I'd have to actually try it. Have you thought about using a die-roll mechanic for obtainting gear instead? |
Spending an advance for +2 damage or armor doesn't sound like a bad deal to me. I thought of using a die-roll mechanic, but honestly, this seems easier, and I don't need to worry about players not being able to get the gear they want.
| Quote: | Man, you just hate guns, almost as much as you hate Kevlar. (Average firearm damage is less than average longbow damage; except for the shotgun.)
Overall, ranged damage is low and range increments are the same or shorter. Melee damage is actually a touch higher than the core rules; I'm guessing you want to encourage in-character stabbing. |
Yeah, you got me. Gun damage only dropped a point, but I did buff up the bows a bit. Still, once you factor in the higher AP and range and lower strength requirement, the rifle will usually come out ahead of the bow. I'm not sure what you mean about reducing the range. With the exception of the shotgun and machine gun, most of the ranges are the same or higher.
Since this game is set in the 1940s, ballistic armor is made of metal or ceramic instead of kevlar. Armor in general isn't designed to be all that effective, since it doesn't really fit the feel of the game.
| Quote: | | I can use my Buster Sword to kill a tank!? That's insane, awesome, and insane. |
I was picturing Fallout's super sledgehammer, but yeah, it's supposed to be insane.  It's worth mentioning that, except for being a heavy weapon, the Huge Weapon is completely inferior to the Large Weapon.
| Quote: | | Plate armor, especially the breast plate, is the absolute best protection you can buy. The complete removal of AP makes it much more generally useful than Kevlar and almost as protective as Kevlar when being shot. Plus, the full suit is fire-proof. |
I didn't remove AP. I just gave it a separate column in the chart, right next to damage.
Plate armor probably does work out to be the best armor overall, as long as you can lift it. I don't know where you get the idea that it protects you from fire, though. |
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ValhallaGH
Legendary
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4564
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Soulliard wrote: | | Still, once you factor in the higher AP and range and lower strength requirement, the rifle will usually come out ahead of the bow. I'm not sure what you mean about reducing the range. With the exception of the shotgun and machine gun, most of the ranges are the same or higher. |
Totally missed the AP column. Okay, guns are less hosed than I initially said.
Ranges are generally the same or shorter. The exception is anything with a Core range of 15" - you bumped it up to 16".
| Soulliard wrote: | | It's worth mentioning that, except for being a heavy weapon, the Huge Weapon is completely inferior to the Large Weapon. |
Huh? That's like saying "except for rate of fire and armor penetration, guns are inferior to bows". HW is the reason to seriously consider a Huge weapon - well, that and the fact that d10's hate me with a burning, murderous passion. I don't know how I ticked off their ancestors, but all of them hold it against me - d8s and d12s are pretty cool though.
| Quote: | | I don't know where you get the idea that it protects you from fire, though. |
It provides full coverage. Which means it protects against area effects (including the nerfed flamethrower). Area effect attacks only bypass armor if one of the basic hit locations (head, arms, legs, or torso) has no coverage. Clintism
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die." |
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canology
Seasoned
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Isn't the discussion linked to there about flamethrowers versus the Armor power? I don't think that a full suit of plate armor is sealed to protect against flamethrowers... |
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Lord Inar
Heroic
Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 1557
Location: Boulder, CO
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ValhallaGH wrote: | | ...well, that and the fact that d10's hate me with a burning, murderous passion. I don't know how I ticked off their ancestors, but all of them hold it against me - d8s and d12s are pretty cool though. |
It's not you.
d10s have a complex because they will always know that they are johnny-come-latelys to the world of dice, and will never be able to join the "perfect solids" club like the other five.
_________________
Lord Inar
Sherwood and Gaslight
Rocky Mountain Savages
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ValhallaGH
Legendary
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4564
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| canology wrote: | | Isn't the discussion linked to there about flamethrowers versus the Armor power? |
It is, but the explanation of how the rules work is so ubiquitous that Clint's quoted that post to clarify later questions. Yo
| Quote: | | I don't think that a full suit of plate armor is sealed to protect against flamethrowers... |
By the basic rules interactions, a full suit helps just as much against flamethrowers as it does against any other area effect attack. But GMs can change whatever they want to change.
Just make sure your players know that before they get shot while wearing the armor. 
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die." |
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Sitting Duck
Legendary
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 4603
Location: Podunk Junction, State of Confusion
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Lord Inar
Heroic
Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 1557
Location: Boulder, CO
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jonrog1
Novice
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Might I suggest a tweak based on the new MISTBORN RPG from Crafty? (And BTW,the whole thing's great. A lot of very fine game design. A big MUST BUY in my book) It's a bit of a kludge to fit to your equipment list, but here goes ...
Define X number -- maybe half Smarts, or just default to 4, or choose a number that's appropriate -- objects as PROPS. Equipment that always refreshes between adventures, that sort of thing, A superior pic = 2 standard picks. This allows the PC a little candy if they want to make it a priority, without feeling that their equipment list may be "gimped" because it's all "Standard" stuff.
Then If the PC wants to spend an advance on having more Resources, he gains another Superior Item --which can be traded for two Standard picks. (In MISTBORN, it's a single Standrad Prop, but their advances come far more often)
You could in theory (which is what Im working on for my campaign) massage this so the Rich Edge can be traded for influence, items, a fluid item pool ... there's just a lot of hackability there. |
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jonrog1
Novice
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Just realized, you could also universalized the Resources rules in Agents of Oblivion by Reality Blurs. PDF is in the usual places,highly recommended spy/horror genre. |
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