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Star wars edge too powerful?
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dentris
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 372

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bloodwork wrote:
Quote:
Don't forget the clone army. That didn't hurt.

That's why I included the Gang-Up rule. When they died in that movie it was usually due to overwhelming numbers (and surprise).

One of the ways I'm looking at the balance is that it's kind of like carrying around their own cover, as they don't really use regular cover.

That's actually an interesting idea

Jedi Defense (Combat)
Requirements: Novice, Arcane Background (Force Sensitive), Jedi/Sith Tradition, Fighting d6+, Notice d6+
Light sabers are famous for their ability to deflect blaster shots. When wielding a lightsaber, you are treated as behind a medium cover.

That way, Jedis will charge against ranged attackers while normal soldiers will take cover. Simple and effective.
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Vinzent
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My version only allowed the reflect if the attackers roll was 4 below the defender's Parry (essentially meaning the jedi got a raise on his parry). I also limited it to one reflect per round.

As for whether or not it's too powerful, well it comes down to how powerful do you want jedi in the game. If you want jedi to be as powerful as other heroes, you might split it into two Edges. You should also have a minimum Agility of D8 and Spirit of D8 for any lightsaber combat edge imho.
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robert4818
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Joined: 25 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:17 am    Post subject: Re: Star wars edge too powerful? Reply with quote

robert4818 wrote:
Bloodwork wrote:
I'm probably going to end up running a Star Wars conversion and I wanted to make a new Professional Edge.

While I like the idea of using the SWEX Arcane Background rules with power points as I feel it reflects that using the force requires effort, I don't want to use the Deflection power to simulate deflecting blaster fire. Thus, the following:

The edge would allow the character to use his Parry score to defend against blaster fire while armed with a lightsaber and not surprised. In addition, he can deflect the fire to another target as a ranged attack action (essentially putting a blaster in his hand). The user is also subject to the gang-up penalty when under fire from multiple sources in the same round.

Is this too powerful? One way to limit this would be to make it unusable if the character is Shaken but I'm not sure. Another problem would be when does the return attack happen? On the attackers turn or on the users? Should the user also be on Hold?

Please note I don't want to get into a debate about Star Wars or why I should be using the NE rules instead. I'm looking for things I haven't considered that might cause problems later on.

Any thoughts are appreciated.


I would go the following route:

A character with AB(Jedi) can attempt to deflect blaster shots if he is not surprised, and armed with a light saber. To do so, they roll fighting against the number rolled to hit them. If they score a raise against that number, they may use it to redirect the blaster shot towards an extra.

If a player has acted already in the turn, the fighting roll suffers the character's MAP with an additional -2 penalty per fighting attack rolled until initiative cards are dealt again.

If a player has NOT acted already, then the first fighting attack is made as normal, with additional ones made with a cumiulative -2 MAP. When his card comes up for action, he starts off with the MAP of last fighting attack, in addition to whatever MAP he may genearte while acting.


Like I said, I'm not sure an edge is actually needed.

By allowing a fighting roll instead of a fixed parry, you have better protection than the ranged TN of 4. On the other hand, since you are using a roll fighting instead of a fixed 2+ 1/2 fighting, on average your defense will be slightly weaker rolling instead of a fixed parry.

The other side of that is that by tying it to the MAP, you automatically put the balance back in.

A jedi, on full defense is awsome to behold, and very hard to hit. But, like in the movies, one that is doing ALOT of stuff, becomes much weaker in the defense rolls.

Someone who acts in combat, and then gets fired upon, starts off making a fighting roll with a min of -2. The more shots taken, the easier it is to get through.

If you want, you can add in edges that mitigate MAP to deflection, but you don't need an edge to simply deflect.
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Bloodwork
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Joined: 20 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jedi Defense (Combat)
Requirements: Novice, Arcane Background (Force Sensitive), Jedi/Sith Tradition, Fighting d6+, Notice d6+
Light sabers are famous for their ability to deflect blaster shots. When wielding a lightsaber, you are treated as behind a medium cover.


You might have something here. Do you think the Defend action could stack with this? How about Block?

And the second Edge could be a rewrite of First Strike:
Once per turn, after being missed by a ranged blaster attack, the force user gets a free Shooting(?) attack against a target within a range of 12/24/48 using the damage dice of the original attack. This attack does not cost the user his action if he is on Hold or has not yet acted this round.
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jpk wrote:
And the way I look at it, if Jedi ... Nifty? Pretty? Cool? Sure. Awesome? [No.]

I'm not a Jedi fan. Not a Sith fan either.
My take was simply that Jedi knights are always vastly more experienced than most of the other folks in the Galaxy, because they're state-sponsored adventurers. They actively hunt trouble, everywhere.
So, my view is that the average Jedi, like the average Special Forces guy, is a minimum of Veteran. Most are in the Legendary range, before they become famous in the Galaxy.
The level-based games never sat right with me, because a level 1 Jedi are those Younglings that Yoda talks to, not independent adventurers.

But, opinions vary, no matter how eloquently I explain my brilliance. Wink
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AMG503
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Joined: 29 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whhen I was working up a Knights of the Old Republic campaign I sorta fell in love with the concept that being able to deflect blaster bolts wasn't a Jedi thing it was a Force User thing.

So as part of (AB) Force User (my version) I included the ability to substitute parry (including bonus for the block edge or full defence) as the TN for ranged attacks PROVIDED they spent an action.

What happened then depended in what they were using and the hit roll..eitehr a normal hit (if ToHit >Parry) a parried hit (To Hit > normal ranged number) or a miss.
Parried hits eitehr treated the parrying object as an obstacle for normal things (yes someone did use a frying pan once) or just a straight miss for things like lightsabres or "enhanced weapons" (thats Sith swords or weapons held by someone using Smite).

Returning the shot needed an edge (enhanced force parry - Seasoned) counted as an action, used their shooting roll and required a lightsabre or enhanced weapon.

Then again I always prefferred the original trilogy "warrior monk" jedi to the new trilogy and ETU "overflowing with garish displays of power" Jedi
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Thrallking
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize I am late to the table, as it were, but I remember a similar edge in Dawn of Legends regarding this. It allowed the target's Parry to be used as the Ranged Defense (in fact, that may have been the name of the edge) as the target number for ranged attacks. I totally agree that being able to redirect the parried blast should be a higher ranked edge. Perhaps with a penalty, as has been suggested, with an additional edge removing that penalty; each edge one rank higher than the one before and requiring said edge? Sounds like a reasonable way to build upon an existing edge.
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Mylon
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may also want to add an edge that provides +2 to parry (yes, this is stronger than block, but it stacks) to account for the fact they don't use shields. Force use as a requirement.
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Bloodwork
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m starting to rethink this again. I’m worried that using Parry for ranged defence basically doubles the effectiveness of certain other edges (Block) and maneuvers (Defend) that increase Parry. I still like the idea of blaster-blocking being skill-based so I've used dentris' suggestion. If they want to push it higher, they can combine it with Deflection. I have re-purposed a few Edges because a) they are already balanced and b) I'm lazy.
I have done the following:

Gear
Lightsaber Str+d6+8, AP12 ,*see notes
Double-ended Lightsaber Str+d6+8, AP12, Parry +1, 2 hands *see notes

Regarding Lightsabers: lightsabers count as Heavy Weapons and opponents are treated as Unarmed unless armed with a lightsaber-resistant weapon or shield (or cortosis arm-guards, et al.). Due to their unwieldy nature, a natural 1 on the Fighting die (regardless of the Wild Die) hits the user instead.

In addition, the double-ended lightsaber does not get a reach bonus (even though it’s based on a staff) as it can’t be held at either end. It can also be used as a single-bladed saber if needed.

Jedi/Sith Training (professional edge)
Requirements: Novice, Arcane Background (Force), Force d8+, Fighting d8+
You have received martial training with the lightsaber. You begin the game with a lightsaber and are considered behind medium cover (targets receive a -2 to hit) from all sides thanks to your ability to parry incoming blaster fire. You also ignore the penalty for using a lightsaber.
I’ve based this (kind of) on Dodge. It gives a -2 instead of -1 but you need the saber out.

Redirect These are based on Counterattack and Improved Counterattack respectively.
Requirements: Seasoned, Jedi/Sith Training
Force users with this Edge know how to redirect blaster fire. Once per round, the character receives one free ranged (force skill) attack against one foe who failed a Shooting attack against him. This attack is made at –2, and the Redirect must be a normal attack (no Called Shot).

Improved Redirect
Requirements: Veteran, Redirect
As above but the character may ignore the –2 penalty.
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blacksunvigo
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bloodwork wrote:

I have done the following:

Gear
Lightsaber Str+d6+8, AP12 ,*see notes
Double-ended Lightsaber Str+d6+8, AP12, Parry +1, 2 hands *see notes

Regarding Lightsabers: lightsabers count as Heavy Weapons and opponents are treated as Unarmed unless armed with a lightsaber-resistant weapon or shield (or cortosis arm-guards, et al.). Due to their unwieldy nature, a natural 1 on the Fighting die (regardless of the Wild Die) hits the user instead.

In addition, the double-ended lightsaber does not get a reach bonus (even though it’s based on a staff) as it can’t be held at either end. It can also be used as a single-bladed saber if needed.

Jedi/Sith Training (professional edge)
Requirements: Novice, Arcane Background (Force), Force d8+, Fighting d8+
You have received martial training with the lightsaber. You begin the game with a lightsaber and are considered behind medium cover (targets receive a -2 to hit) from all sides thanks to your ability to parry incoming blaster fire. You also ignore the penalty for using a lightsaber.
I’ve based this (kind of) on Dodge. It gives a -2 instead of -1 but you need the saber out.

Redirect These are based on Counterattack and Improved Counterattack respectively.
Requirements: Seasoned, Jedi/Sith Training
Force users with this Edge know how to redirect blaster fire. Once per round, the character receives one free ranged (force skill) attack against one foe who failed a Shooting attack against him. This attack is made at –2, and the Redirect must be a normal attack (no Called Shot).

Improved Redirect
Requirements: Veteran, Redirect
As above but the character may ignore the –2 penalty.


I have done almost exactly the same thing with Lightsabers & Counterattack, but I used an extra derived Trait called Deflection (1/2 Use the Force +2), with ranged attacks in the same turn receiving gradual (shot-by-shot) gang up bonus. An Edge called Improved Deflection worked like Block and I allowed Defend and Full Defense to work with Deflection trait.

Just sharing Smile
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GranFalloon
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone recently posted a Star Wars conversion that gave all characters a "Dodge" or "Evade" stat equal to 1/2 Smarts + 2. Make a Smart Force-User with Improved Dodge and give it a Deflection Trapping. Then all you need is the Redirection edge. I would just say that once per round, after a blaster attack misses you, you may make a ranged attack against one enemy within X, for however much damage that bolt was for. Don't sweat any sort of MAP, and don't allow more than one redirection per round.
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Trotter
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I require Jedi to have the Lightsaber Edge (to be able to wield it), Use the Force (Spirit). To use the Parry score for deflection, they must also have the Sense Edge, and to redirect a shot they must also have the Alter Edge.

Stephen
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