Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[Withered]

One of my players want to use an atl-atl to throw his spear.

Are there existing atl-atl stats somewhere, or should i generate my own.

Based on what i read, it seems the major advantage of using the thing is to add range. I was considering adding a couple of inches to the spears statistics to reflect this, but wanted to check first to see if perhaps i was not reinventing the wheel.

Also, while i am at it, the illustration on page 13 of SWD shows a man holding a shield and spear. Would that be the spear from the SWD rules, or some other variant? Does the spear in that picture provide reach and parry even though it is used one handed?

If it is a different spear, where would i find the stats for it?

The player of the spear carrying buffalo hunter would appreciate the help, as would i.

L.

[xxlgeeklord]

The spear carried by the guy in the picture puzzled me to for a while, but I think it's a javelin. It's stats can be found under ranged medieval in both the SWEX and SWD. I don't know of any atl-atl stats. It might exist in a setting book I don't own, though. Hell, the only place I've seen with actual atl-atl stats is Runequest.

[Withered]

I came up with several variants to reflect the different types of spears used by spear users through out history. My player seems to not like the various trade offs.

I want to give him as many choices as possible, while still being sort of realistic.

Since a spear is a one shot item, and does only, in the case of the character in question, 2d6 damage. How unbalancing would it be to change the range of a thrown spear? It would go from 3/6/9 to 4/8/12 and still be reasonable, yes?

Since SW is still so new to me i want to kind of pick apart the wee things to see how everything is going to tick when i start using it.

I also came up with these:

SWD gives spears the following stats:
Damage 1d6 Parry +1, Reach +1, 2 handed

The solution is somewhere near the following choices.

The standard core rule book spear can not be combined with a shield. If you do combine it with a shield, you lose the parry bonus, and it can not be thrown because it is not a javelin. Also, it is about eight feet long.

There is a smaller style of spear, called a hasta, that can be used with a shield, does provide a parry bonus, but does not provide reach. It can not be thrown.

The Pila can be used one handed, with a shield, but provides no reach, no parry. It can be thrown.

Or we can go with this:

Spears are magical, and can be used two handed, with a shield, providing reach and parry bonuses, and can be thrown. However the total that appears on the attack roll when it is used is retained, and after every attack the spear bends, twists and contorts to attack either the wielder (1-5) or an adjacent ally (6) using the retained number. If there is no ally nearby, the wielder gets hit twice, both attacks using the same to hit total. Also, they become addicted to the sweat and musk of the warriors that wield them and will actively seek them out if abandoned or lost. They are able to perfectly track their former owners across any distance and intervening terrain.

[ValhallaGH]

Given that an atlatl can throw a spear over 100 yards, only adding one inch to the base range seems a little short.
I'd go with 10/20/40, practically pistol ranges, for the super assistance.

One thing to understand about spears is that most of what we think about spears is wrong. Unless you're wielding a pike (which is around 12 to 20 feet long), you'll be using the spear one-handed so that you can hold your shield. (The fact that it's an eight foot long pointy stick doesn't really matter if you hold it correctly.)
The only reason to use a spear in two hands is that there is literally nothing better for your other hand to do - there's no shield to hold up, nobody to punch, nothing to hold on to, no other weapons to use, no obscene gestures to make, and no hand signals to give.

Something to think about.
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[warrenss2]

Given that an atlatl can throw a spear over 100 yards...

I've made and used one before... you might want to make that 100yds a 150+yds!!! They really travel a good distance.

Plus I would give them at least 2 AP! The darts used to pierce those metal breast-plates of Cortez's men, sticking in the front and out the back, pinning them inside that armor. They greatly feared the weapon.

I personally know of a modern hunter using an atlatl against a charging boar. The dart entered near the upper right shoulder, penetrated thru the creature, and had the point enter the dirt under the beast's belly. If any of you know how tough a wild boar is you would realize that this is quite a statement of power!

Just my 2 cents... I'm something of a primitive camper/hunter.
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[Enno]

An atlatl is basically a "spear thrower". It simply raises the range of a "thrown" spear, and gives it a bit more power.



The Totems of the Dead setting defines an atlatl as a "dart" thrower.
A dart is a lighter throwing spear (damage Str+d4) here. The atlatl then raises its damage by +2, and doubles the ranges.

In Beasts & Barbarians an atlatl gives its user the Strong Arm Edge, that raises the range brackets of a thrown spear generally by 50% (exact calculations more detailed).

Personally i would go with the TotD solution, but would hold the damage on the original value, as the energy mostly goes into range. So a spear thrown with an atlatl would have the following data:

Atlatl/Spear (Range 6/12/24, Damage Str+d6, ROF 1, Wght 1+5)

Its not perfect, but good enough for me
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[kaltorak]

Enno missed a part. This is the atl-atl second Beasts and Barbarians:

[Pariah74]

[Enno]

[Pariah74]

It depends on how you view most RPG.
"Most" RPGs that I have played have drawn from ancient mythology and didn't take place anywhere near "Eurasia."
Not only that but plenty of the races in RPGs are primitive cultures that use spears instead of bows.
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[Enno]

And these ancient mythologies were mostly eurasian/african, or based at least in part upon them.

Even writers describe only what they know best...

In the few settings with native american cultures the spearthrower was always a part of (unless there are firearms).
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[Pariah74]

I don't really think you understand what I am saying. I'm sorry, I'll try to be more clear.

D&D is setting in fantasy setting based on 14th century Europe, but it includes monsters, races and all sorts of things culled from ancient times and other cultures. There were no "great swords" around when Perseus was fighting Medusa. There was no double headed orc axe things ever. I'm pretty sure after the invention of the bow you didn't see many people using slings in warfare either but they still have those included.

They list 3 or 4 different kinds of bow regardless of time period and all that, so it seems an oversight to leave out such a basic weapon.

Seems to me, that many primitive monster races like kobolds and other things would probably find spear throwers extremely useful.
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"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax

[Vinzent]

Yes, there were still slingers. Mainly because it was a cheap weapon and ammo was all around you in the form of stones. Supplying a moving army of archers with arrows usually took extra carts.

One of the reasons that innaccurate guns replaced archers was that a gunner could carry a full day's worth of ammo on his person instead of taking up a supply wagon.
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[Enno]

"Primitive" unequal "stupid". I see, where you're going, but consider one point ... cultural exchange.

What had the Aztecs and the Aborigines in common? These cultures were more or less isolated, had cultural stigmas against certain technological advances, and knew no invasions and migrations by other cultures. So they never had to develop better missile weapons. These cultures were somewhat monolithic.

On the other hand, look at Europe, Asia, and Africa, where peoples wandered from east to west, from south to north since times immemorial. Cultures mixed, united, and stimulated one another etc.

Now imagine a Kobold culture, surrounded by bigger enemies that wield bows. They may be stupid, but not dumb. Bows complement their weak stature, and equalize any disadvantages regarding their size. Unless they don't have cultural bans on certain weaponry, it would be illogical if they wouldn't switch.

As i said, bows are the far superior weapon, and in its basic form not more difficult to build than a spear or axe.

Regarding the "status" of a bow in such a culture, one could assume, that the spear comes with a higher status. Bows were long time just better tools for hunting. They are delicate, break easy, but are easier to replace, easier then a good spear with a flint or bronze tip. And what is a bow more than an elaborated spear or better dart thrower, were the power comes from a string not leverage.

As far as slingers are concerned, these weapons had the same fate like the spear throwers after the stone age. Their only advantage were its "price", but in range and damage the spear thrower were the better weapons. After bows were invented slings were just better tools for herders.
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[Pariah74]

You really think it's cheaper to make a sling than a spear thrower?

I'm not arguing that the weapon was used in medieval Europe, or that it was superior to bows, or that it has a place in any real army.

I'm saying it's got as much right to be in a fantasy setting as slings, fake axes that wouldn't even work in a world with physics as we know it, and many of the other silly things. I'm saying that IN ITS TIME it was so common and pervasive that it should be as standard on the equipment lists of games as the sling.
Any modern game still lists bows, despite the fact that they aren't used in modern combat. In ancient Rome spear throwers and bows coexisted on the battlefield.

I see no reason to ignore it on a weapon list. The bow is superior in many ways...got it. I understand that fact. That doesn't mean cultures who don't use bows wouldn't still use the spear thrower.

You argue for why kobolds would, but I don't really know what default setting you're using as an example. Even so, the Monster Manual lists primitive humans who use thrown spears as their weapons. That's just one of many entries for races that do not use bows.
And as I said, even in our reality spear throwers and bows coexisted on the battlefield.

There's no reason IMO for the spear thrower to be so disregarded as it generally is in gaming.
_________________
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax

[ValhallaGH]

[Enno]

[Clint]

[Enno]

True!

... But thought more Bards Tale, than d&d 1e
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There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.

[Pariah74]