Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[deadlander]

hi guys, got a kevlar vest--av1 to guts with 6 durability, does damage to armour divide same as vehicle damage or is it 1 for 1?

or should armoured vests and battle suits have a higher durability.

i know in reality a vest stops 1 shot before police dump it, but an infantry battlesuit should stop more, so would dividing by 10 for small arms make the vests to tough?
any help greatly appreciated.

[Templar]

I think it might be the same thing with vehicles. One thought might be to check in the Denver book as they have durability rules for power armor and that would seem to fit with body armor for durability principles and all that.

Edit: Nope, I'm wrong, just dug up the Denver Book and looked through it. They don't have any durability rules, instead they do it where if you take a wound in a location the AV of that section drops by 1, hitting zero destroys that section. It might work but that seems problematic for stuff like Kevlar and the like.

[ValhallaGH]

[ScooterinAB]

Ya. My group does the "every wound reduces the AV" thing from Denver. It is brutal. As the only posse member wearing a kevlar vest, I lost it in one action of shooting. Everyone else in the group wears like, 7 levels of (Junker) armor or some crap.

I've asked the marshal about it, and planted the thought of maybe dealing with device durability instead. Alternatively, as this might not make the armor last any longer, one might maybe have the AV drop a single point for every penetrating hit, with it being repairable instead of destroyed.

My issue with the whole matter is this. It makes sense that armor is going to get pretty damaged up from auto fire or Templar swipes, but a Kevlar vest being shot twice and being destroyed is a bit of a plausibility issue.
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28/12/09 Scooter just bought a Deadlands book... In a Japanese Gaming store... And the clerk knew what it was. Awesome.

[ScooterinAB]

I pondered this last night, and here's what I've come up with.

The reasoning for the Power Armor rule is because power armor is likely to draw heavy firepower. Think about the big hits (like artillery weapons) required to punch through that armor. It's going to get pretty wrecked as it gets hit. Your opponent is also targeting the armor itself, rather than the rider (whereas a person with body armor is more likely to be targeted than the armor itself). At the end of the day, these high powered hits are going to be tearing the armor apart. This is not the case with people armor, as a shot from a pistol won't be tearing it apart in the same manner.

I propose this. For every wound that penetrates body armor, deduct one point from the durability (remember that stat?). As the durability steps drop, so too would the effective armor rating. When the durability drops to 0, either the armor is destroyed, or it is so damaged that it pretty much needs to be rebuilt. Attacks directly targeting the armor itself (instead of the wearer) damage the armor as described in Junkman Cometh (page 57 or so).

Here's the logic. Most body armor is going to be between size 2 and 4. Size 2 Junker devices (the head, maybe limbs) have a 5/1 durability. That means the location can take 5 wounds, cumulatively, before the armor is basically toast. For size 4 armor, the durability of 7/2 means that the brainer can take 14 wounds in the location, with decreasing effectiveness of the armor after 7, before the armor is stops doing its job.

What this really means is that a few hits from high powered weapons are going to tear the armor up pretty good, while it will take longer for small arms fire. For example, an Anti-Templar burying his/her axe into someone is going to wreck their armor up a lot fast than a 9mm pistol will.

Thoughts?
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28/12/09 Scooter just bought a Deadlands book... In a Japanese Gaming store... And the clerk knew what it was. Awesome.

[ValhallaGH]

[ScooterinAB]

That works. I was just going by the durability description in JMC, but that allows more of a scavenger idea (salvaging and repairing armor, rather than a dualistic "exists or doesn't" approach).
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28/12/09 Scooter just bought a Deadlands book... In a Japanese Gaming store... And the clerk knew what it was. Awesome.

[Edivdrone]

I think it makes a lot of sense. Any chance of an official stamp of approval/archiving in case this comes up again?
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I can do all things through Christ who stengthens me.

[Zeb Rowe]

Late to the ball on this one, but I've just started up a new tabletop session for our group, and handed out my version of an armor damage (and armor repair) system. I offer this for your perusal:

Body Armor, Cyborg Armor and Powered BattleArmor all have Durability scores for each location. The armor protects the wearer as long as it has Durability points. The Durability is a function of its AV:
Light Armor has 5 Durability per -2 value
Heavy Armor has 20 Durability per +1 value.

Any time a player takes damage under the armor (and doesn't buy it off), the armor loses Durability points based on the weapon, using the same categories as defined in Road Warriors:
1dur/die Small Arms
2dur/die Light Weapons
5dur/die Heavy Weapons
10dur/die Antitank Weapons

Damaged Armor can be fixed with tinkerin' and Armor Repair Kits (of which there are Light, Heavy, Cyborg and Battlearmor varieties), with time and difficulty increasing with damage levels. Destroyed armor is good for parts but not much else.

The typical waster armor have 10-40 Durability points per location in this system, with the typical waster weapons inflicting around 3-6 points in a single attack (assuming we're talking pistols, rifles, shotguns and melee weapons).

We'll be playing it out and making adjustments, but it seems to work well, without getting too complicated. A nice feature of this is that the really heavy armor of the cyborgs and battlearmor jocks also falls into this system.

I have a more detailed writeup in case anyone is interested; this was only the capsule review.

Hope this may be of use to someone.
_________________
Epitaph: Player Threatened by Pinnacle!

"...so I unwrap my brand new City O' Gloom box, and right there on the inside of the box bottom, I find the word "Die!!" handwritten in nice big friendly letters..."

What did I ever do to you guys?

[ValhallaGH]

Why did you change how Durability works, just for armor? Was there not enough complexity in the damage rules, you needed to change object damage for one class of objects?

Why does a Kevlar Vest have as much Durability as a 2foot by 2foot section of a hardened bunker wall? Sure, its durability works differently, but it has still got 20 durability.
Heck, an armored duster has as much durability as an Armored Safe. 'Tis very strange.
(Used Waste Warriors for the references.)
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

[Zeb Rowe]

I felt that armor, which is purposely built to withstand damage, could stand up to the punishment. As for why I changed the object damage rules, it was because I felt the other change to the object damage rules (Denver's Power Armor rules, official, I might add) were pretty wonky. I want armor to wear out, but not that fast...

And the armored duster does not have the same durability as an armored safe. Sure they have the same number of points, but that Armored Duster, with its 10 points, won't last long against a 6d6 shotgun. Two shots to the guts (at 6 points a shot) and it's shredded. That Armored Safe divides the 6d6 damage by 10 and will last a hell of a lot longer.

Maybe to avoid confusion, I should rename Armor Durability to something else. It's not the same scale.

Does that clarify matters?
_________________
Epitaph: Player Threatened by Pinnacle!

"...so I unwrap my brand new City O' Gloom box, and right there on the inside of the box bottom, I find the word "Die!!" handwritten in nice big friendly letters..."

What did I ever do to you guys?

[Zeb Rowe]

As an alternative, I suppose I could simply apply normal Durability rules to armor and have the vehicle damage division apply to it, so that armor takes a fraction of the damage that its user does (1/10 for small arms, 1/5 for light weapons, 1/2 for weapon and 1/1 for antitank).

All we would have to do then is to determine what the actual Durability is to the armor itself. Durability should still be a function of the toughness of the material, I think.

That might work better for some and not add a contentious new set of damage rules to the game.

Just thoughts.
_________________
Epitaph: Player Threatened by Pinnacle!

"...so I unwrap my brand new City O' Gloom box, and right there on the inside of the box bottom, I find the word "Die!!" handwritten in nice big friendly letters..."

What did I ever do to you guys?

[ValhallaGH]

[Zeb Rowe]

I've adjusted my rules to match that idea; thanks. This does simplify things.

I abstracted the values based on the type of armor, regardless of the type of material it's made of.
Light Armor has Dur 3 per AV-2
Heavy Armor has Dur 10 per AV+1

(Special materials like Dragonskin™, Ghost Steel, Tannis Rock, Wormling Resin or Zombie Leather have modifications to that, in terms of increased durability or ease of maintenance)

The armor loses durability, reflected as a fraction of the damage that gets through to the wearer:
1/10 damage as durability from Small Arms
1/5 damage as durability from Light Weapons
1/2 damage as durability from Heavy Weapons
1/1 damage as durability from Big Stuff

(...with modifiers for Armor Piercing, Explosive, Frangible/Dum Dum damage)

This does cut the numbers down and keeps armor vulnerable to being destroyed, but not in a single engagement.

Thanks for the input!
_________________
Epitaph: Player Threatened by Pinnacle!

"...so I unwrap my brand new City O' Gloom box, and right there on the inside of the box bottom, I find the word "Die!!" handwritten in nice big friendly letters..."

What did I ever do to you guys?

[ValhallaGH]

Always glad to help.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

[Jack_Spade]

I'm a part of Scooter's group, and we use the standard "wounds reduce AV" bit from Denver. Some of the following may be in exception of those rules (I'm not 100% on them):

Light armour never gets destroyed in protection when you take a wound.
Armour isn't destroyed when wounds are dealt through it, it is only damaged. It can be repaired.
Location is important for armour degradation; we do it on a per-location basis.

We do it this way because it makes the game brutal (much to the chagrin of Scooter), scary and possibly deadly. No one has yet to die though in our current group - though a couple of people have gotten close.

Also, I am said character with 7 (or so) levels of armour. Most of my armour though is cyborg shielding; the rest of the party rolls around in heavy (40+Lb.) junker-made armour, varying from 2 to 4 points of AV in all locations.
I'm also that group's junker. And rules-guy (I would say lawyer, but most of my rules corrections are in detriment to the group, and not the Marshal - again to their chagrin).

I do wonder on what power scale many of you posters run your games on.

[SilasWrathStrike]

"Oh hey Tom, don't you have a -2 for that wound penalty"
"......yeah. So I guess I failed my dodge roll. Whelp, I'm dead! Thanks Dan."

[ValhallaGH]

[Zeb Rowe]

Our posses (I have two online games and one tabletop) play on the low end of the armor scale. There is one infiltrator cyborg in the group with skirmish armor and one old soldier rolling in his LRRP, and that's the top end. The rest are making do with IBS, one tattered SWAT suit that's about to get cannibalized for parts, junkmail and assorted waster leathers.

We've just implemented the rules for armor durability and armor repair, so we'll prolly see a good bit of turnover for the armor, especially since we're playing at the high end of firepower.
_________________
Epitaph: Player Threatened by Pinnacle!

"...so I unwrap my brand new City O' Gloom box, and right there on the inside of the box bottom, I find the word "Die!!" handwritten in nice big friendly letters..."

What did I ever do to you guys?

[SilasWrathStrike]

Our group usually doesn't worry about keeping track of armor damage, just more math than is necessary. On the flip side we're usually a pretty lightly armor group, so it does balance out a bit. Right now I'm by far the most armor target, I've got Armor of the Saints level -4, the Executive Protection Suit -10, and Junker Armor I just recently acquired that's AV 3. That's about the most armor I've ever had in any of my Deadlands games, ever.