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Does anybody have suggestions for grittier Healing rules?
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thwill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:15 am    Post subject: Does anybody have suggestions for grittier Healing rules? Reply with quote

Hi folks,

One of my current peeves with SW:Ex is that even in the absence of any "powers" the Healing system can produce results that seriously strain my suspension of disbelief.

e.g. In a recent Zombie Run game one of the characters (a Luchador) took an unlucky hit from a Wolf and as a result was Incapacitated with 3 Wounds and a Hideous Scar. The GM ruled that the Wolf had got him by the throat and tried its best to rip it out ... sounds good.

50 minutes of game time later and a couple of relatively lucky Healing rolls by the Paramedic character and the character was no longer Incapacitated or Wounded (though the scar remained because it is a permanent injury). So the Luchador goes off on his merry way without so much as a headache to batter another platoon of Zombies into submission ...

This just doesn't work for me ... does anybody have any suggestions?

Yours truly,

Tom
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Wiggy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick suggestions... you could allow a single Healing roll in the "golden hour." At best that'll remove two wounds. Or allow one roll and only ever one wound to be removed.
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thwill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Wiggy,

Quote:
you could allow a single Healing roll in the "golden hour." At best that'll remove two wounds. Or allow one roll and only ever one wound to be removed.


I suspect that is probably too severe, I don't mind the character's getting up (don't want the player sitting on the sidelines completely) but I'd like them to know that they've been in a fight.

I was thinking that the healer can keep rolling within the "golden hour", but the best they can do is heal 2 wounds from any given injury ... so until natural healing takes its course a character will always have 1 wound for each time they have taken a 3+ wound hit.

It's a bit "book-keepy" and I would like something more FFF ... but I guess there is always a compromise between "realism" and "fun".

Yours truly,

Tom
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thwill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe allow the healer to keep rolling (within the "golden hour"), but as soon as they get their first success they have to stop, thus healing at most 2 wounds.

That wouldn't add any book keeping and should get the effect I want.
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Sitting Duck
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you remembering to apply the patient's Wound Modifiers to the Healing roll?
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thwill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Are you remembering to apply the patient's Wound Modifiers to the Healing roll?


Most of the time Wink

But when you've got Healing d8 and the Healer (or Physician) edge then it's not difficult to heal the Incapacitation and build up the 3 successes required when you get 6 rolls in the "golden hour", even with the -3 Wound penalty. And the odds of making it worse are pretty slim especially when there are Bennies to play with.
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Jordan Peacock
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I look at it, I try to separate roleplay from the stats. That is, the hero has been badly injured, but he's bandaged up by the group's medic. In real life, we know that he's STILL HURT, and he's not going to be forgetting about it - but for the sake of story and gameplay, we imagine that he should be able to grit his teeth and bear the pain and soldier on for the sake of survival.

So, when a PC is bandaged up with a Healing skill that "removes the Wounds," I make clear that the wounds don't just (poof!) go away. The hero is still bandaged up, it still hurts, and every now and then the bandages are going to have to be changed and the injury checked to make sure it doesn't get infected, and all that stuff, even if we aren't going to play that out, gruesome detail by detail. (It just probably falls upon me, the GM, to remind the players in narrative every now and then, unless the player seems to be doing a good enough job on his own by reflecting it in roleplay.)

Game-stat-wise, the hero might come away with nothing more than a scar (and the burning of a few bennies for soak rolls and to make the eventual healing roll), but I don't think it's so much of a problem unless the players are envisioning this as some sort of video game effect where, if there's no -1, -2 or -3 penalty, then all those wounds just magically sealed up and went away.

(Apologies if I'm completely missing the point here.)
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Setting Rule: Severe Wounds

Healing skill rolls within the golden hour can remove a maximum of two wounds or Incapacitation and one wound (the healing power works as normal). Any additional wounds are not removed on a success but translated into a level of Bumps & Bruises Fatigue. Since this type of Fatigue cannot lead to Incapacitation, the transference cannot occur if that would be the result.

Example: Buck has taken 3 wounds and been Incapacitated; he also has one level of Fatigue from lack of sleep (don't ask). Virginia rolls her Healing skill and gets a success, removing his Incapacitation. She makes a second roll and gets a raise; this time she removes another wound and the raise turns one wound into a level a Fatigue. Buck now has one wound remaining and two levels of Fatigue. Since another level of Fatigue would Incapacitate Buck, Virginia can't use Healing any further. Buck will recover the level of B&B Fatigue in 24 hours, but he is stuck with natural healing for that last wound; Buck should have gotten a good night's sleep.
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thwill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Clint, that has the look of something semi-official, or is it just your supervillain armour that makes it seem that way Wink

How would you handle "The injury goes away when all wounds are healed" results on the Incapacitation table? Do wounds that have been converted to Fatigue count as having been "healed".

And whilst it occurs to me how does that rule apply by vanilla SW:Ex rules. Does the character have to be healed back to 0 wounds for the injury to be healed, or just heal the wounds that caused the injury?
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Bill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thwill wrote:
Hi Clint, that has the look of something semi-official, or is it just your supervillain armour that makes it seem that way Wink

How would you handle "The injury goes away when all wounds are healed" results on the Incapacitation table? Do wounds that have been converted to Fatigue count as having been "healed".

And whilst it occurs to me how does that rule apply by vanilla SW:Ex rules. Does the character have to be healed back to 0 wounds for the injury to be healed, or just heal the wounds that caused the injury?


Clint is pretty much the "official" guy when it comes to non-official rules as he answers all the official questions on the forum. From my reading on it SW makes it simple without paper keeping so, once all the wounds are healed the injury is healed but if he suffered another wound he would half to wait until all were healed. Of course the B&B fatigue results also affect the skill penalties he is operating out of (-3 being B&B 2 + 1 Wound) so he is likely just resting for a while and it would take a week to recover that last wound. As far as wounds converted to fatigue counting as "healed" for FFF purposes I would say yes they do.
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thwill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Clint is pretty much the "official" guy when it comes to non-official rules as he answers all the official questions on the forum.


Yes, I've been asking questions long enough to know that. And sterling work he does too.

I was actually (in a very round about way) asking whether that particular setting rule actually came from one of the official settings.

Tom
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thwill wrote:
How would you handle "The injury goes away when all wounds are healed" results on the Incapacitation table? Do wounds that have been converted to Fatigue count as having been "healed".


Depends on how "severe" you would want Severe Healing to be, but I'd say the character has to recover from the Fatigue as well, which is still automatic every 24 hours instead of a roll each week.

thwill wrote:
And whilst it occurs to me how does that rule apply by vanilla SW:Ex rules. Does the character have to be healed back to 0 wounds for the injury to be healed, or just heal the wounds that caused the injury?


All wounds means all wounds have to be healed; there's no differentiation. In essence, regardless of the order taken, the injury only fully heals after the last wound does.

thwill wrote:
I was actually (in a very round about way) asking whether that particular setting rule actually came from one of the official settings.


It does not come from any published setting or product.
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Lord Lance
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Does anybody have suggestions for grittier Healing rules Reply with quote

thwill wrote:
unlucky hit from a Wolf and as a result was Incapacitated with 3 Wounds and a Hideous Scar

...

50 minutes of game time later and a couple of relatively lucky Healing rolls by the Paramedic character and the character was no longer Incapacitated or Wounded (though the scar remained because it is a permanent injury).


Well, man, maybe you forgot that scar is a -1 Charisma, so your character lost about an "half level". If the character lost a dice in Vigor (or other Stat), then he would be less happier... a "full level" thrown in the toilet! ^____^

And please, remember how easy is to die in S.W., if you miss some "survival" edges, or a wonderful Vigor.
PS: The incapacitation table was modified (more grittier). Search for it in the errata.
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jerepp
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odd thing about Clint's answer is I was just dreaming up something similar. Though had only gone as far as dealing with extras...

In a Evernight game I was GMing one of the players bought a Dog and proceeded to use him as an extra in fights. Said dog got mauled by a rat swarm and incapacitated. After the fight I rolled and the dog survived. The player then made a healing roll and dog was at 100% 10 minutes later... this seemed to stretch my suspension of disbelief a little. So I quickly house ruled that although healed the dog had a level of fatigue until he had a chance to rest for at least a day.
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AFDia
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would suggest using the official SWEX rule, but add "If a healing roll fails, the Golden Hour ends immediately. Remaining wounds must heal naturally".

This rule avoids additional bookkeeping and it's FFF. If I remember correctly, it was part of the Healing rules in previous SW versions.
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77IM
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a slight tangent, you might look at my idea for War Wounds.

It doesn't make healing any more difficult but it does make Wounds more bearable by converting them into Injuries. Basically, I think having a penalty to everything for the next 5 days, is not much fun. So if healing becomes more difficult, the wound penalty should be softened as well. Injuries tend to be less bad than Wounds, and also more interesting because of their variety and how you can cope with them.

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Dont Die
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And my players complained that the standard rules were too severe. Very Happy
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Cryonic
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would rule that if the player was brought up from 3 wounds to full that the injury was more pain and less actual damage. In other words "It looked worse than it really was, twas merely a flesh wound and nothing more."
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shark1257
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I am looking to introduce some grit to the healing of my games I have what I think is a simple house rule for wound upkeep.

Wound Upkeep
Once a wounded character is healed the dressings and wounds need attendance to avoid further infection, roughly once an hour or so. In the event that dressings cannot be changed/cleaned the "injured" character must make a Vigor roll. Failure indicates a fatigue level due to infection and/or pain, a critical failure means the "injured" character takes two fatigue levels. Incapacitation results in the re-introduction of a wound.

This is how I tend to run healing(in addition to the core rules) in my horror and war based games anyway.
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thwill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the ideas folks, I think I'll be trying out Clint's "Severe Wounds" rule for the moment.

For those who are interested I have some comments on the things others have said:

Lord Lance wrote:

Well, man, maybe you forgot that scar is a -1 Charisma, so your character lost about an "half level". If the character lost a dice in Vigor (or other Stat), then he would be less happier... a "full level" thrown in the toilet! ^____^

And please, remember how easy is to die in S.W., if you miss some "survival" edges, or a wonderful Vigor.
PS: The incapacitation table was modified (more grittier). Search for it in the errata.


I didn't mean to imply that the Luchador was "happy" with the result, just that what should have been a horribly severe wounds hardly impacted upon his Mexican style Zombie wrestling antics at all.

I am aware of the grittier incapacitation table, but don't really like it, you can see my comments on http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25190&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20. It doesn't really address my concerns in this case which are not that it's too easy/too hard to put down a PC, just that it is too easy for them to brush off their wounds.

AFDia wrote:
I would suggest using the official SWEX rule, but add "If a healing roll fails, the Golden Hour ends immediately. Remaining wounds must heal naturally".


I'm not sure that's an "official" SW:Ex rule since it doesn't appear in the rulebook, though I understand it's a setting rule for Solomon Kane and others?

For my purposes I consider it too harsh (beause there is a good chance of no wounds being healed at all), I want PC's to get up, I just want them to know that they were in a fight.

Cryonic wrote:
I would rule that if the player was brought up from 3 wounds to full that the injury was more pain and less actual damage. In other words "It looked worse than it really was, twas merely a flesh wound and nothing more."


My problem with this is that it can result in me as the GM describing a wound as really severe and then having to backtrack when the healing starts. If it happens more than once or twice it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

And thanks again to everyone else for their comments,

Tom
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