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A question on trappings..
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Doge
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:48 pm    Post subject: A question on trappings.. Reply with quote

First of all, I am a new player and may have completely misunderstood something.. Which is the reason why I am posting here, so that I may learn.. Wink

Now.. this post is actually about me, or rather a question / suggestion I had for my GM.. (No worries, I accepted his reply and this is not a whiny post, so I can say 'See I was right' or anything like that.)

However, I would like to learn something about trappings.

As I understand them, reading the Core Rules and the Fantasy Companion, the trappings posted are examples and guidelines, not the only possible way / made in stone / you know what I mean.

I believe that it is the point for players and GMs (in cooperation) to try and come up with new ideas and concepts and that the trappings described in these books are merely the basic ideas. Am I completely wrong in this?

Now, what I did was take the spell Damage Field and add both the Cold and Necromantic trapping to the spell, believing that the trappings themselves where in the nature of building blocks, defining the overall whole. Thus, adding cold and necromantic to the spell wasn't a problem, since the trappings themselves were a mechanic tool, rather than an in-game definer. (Does this even make sense or am I babbling?)

What I'm trying to say is that I added both benefits and both penalties, as I saw them coming together fluently, creating a single greater whole, which were neither more powerful, nor less so, just different. Thus I didn't really consider the number of trappings in a pure rule-mechanic sense, but the overall result, considering it naturally balanced by adding both penalties from the trappings.

The reason for this was simply that I like the tematic effect. I based this on the idea of the Cold of Death (as in how people always feel cold to the touch when they're dead and so forth) and since I described the effect of the spell as being an aura of death, which drained my enemies of life itself (this is all flavor) it made sense to have the benefits of the two powers. (one has a fear-effect on a hit, the other a fatigue-effect, both dependant on a either a successful close-combat attack, if he hits me, or a touch attack, if I hit him.) This is according to the rule of the spell itself and nothing made by me. I added both penalties as well, doubling the power point cost and making it so that the undead acted as if under the Arcana Resistance edge, when hit with this spell and thought this balanced it out, as the individual trappings had these two bonuses and these two penalties and if taken individually, were considered balanced.

Now, I asked for my GM's ruling on a change.. I asked to have any undead be immune to the cold-effect as well as the necromantic effect (as I read the trapping, they were not affected by the fear-effect) and in return get the -2 penalty imposed on the victim's vigor roll (on the fatigue check) added to the fear-roll as well.. Again I considered this balanced and awaited a ruling..


Now and please do not misunderstand me. What I am asking here is not whether I or my GM were in the right. He is the GM and it is his ruling, that's final. Smile

What I want to know, is if I have misunderstood the principle and spirit of the trappings-rules completely (and if so, if someone will please explain how and what the principle and spirit is then) or, if I had the right idea in thinking that the trappings in the book where meant more in the sense of examples of how to do things and how to balance them out (since they aren't expalined in absolutes)..

If I am wrong, then how am I meant to be creative then? I am not entirely sure I understand and would like it explained, if anyone feels up to it.

If I am right in thinking that what I did was not so much adding two trappings to a spell, but creating a new and (hopefully) balanced trapping, with greater benefits but also equally greater penalties and adding that to the spell.

Again, this is in no way meant as me being whiny about my GMs ruling, but rather I'm trying to learn something so I can do better in the future.

Thanks in advance..

- Doge
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UmbraLux
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple things which may help -
- a trapping is not necessarily a singular affect, it's an agreed upon modification to one or more powers.
- the trappings shown in the book are examples not 'the one and only list of acceptable trappings'. Smile

I hesitate to put words in Clint's mouth, but I suspect his intent was to say you shouldn't have a single power with the ability to choose between two different trappings unless you purchase the power twice. Giving a power a single trapping with multiple effects isn't necessarily disallowed. However, essentially creating two different powers by allowing a choice of trappings is nonstandard.

The important thing is that agreement is reached...trappings should fit the concept of both the player's character and the GM's world. You'll also note that all of the examples have significant weaknesses. In fact, I'd argue they're all weaker than the base power with no trappings.
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shadd4d
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, welcome to the forums!

0,03 says that Max Schrek is your GM; if so, he asked the same question at this post. According to Clint "one trapping per power. Barring a specific Setting Rule, it would require taking the power again (as with the New Power Edge) to gain another trapping."

That said, if your GM is okay with it as a setting rule (and you are ready to have it used against you) I'd say run with it...if your GM's cool with it. Wink

Have fun.
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Doge
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UmbraLux: This is how I understood the intent of the trappings and where the core of my confusion lies. Thank you. Smile

Shadd4d: Thank you Smile Yes, Max is my GM (I linked to the post in question in the top of the thread)
The core of my question has been defined infinitely well by UmbraLux though, so I'll quote him.

Quote:
I hesitate to put words in Clint's mouth, but I suspect his intent was to say you shouldn't have a single power with the ability to choose between two different trappings unless you purchase the power twice. Giving a power a single trapping with multiple effects isn't necessarily disallowed. However, essentially creating two different powers by allowing a choice of trappings is nonstandard.


I thought what I did was to design a new trapping with multiple benefits and penalties all at once (no choosing between them) but I suspect the core of my confusion lies in the very fact whether this is considered adding one (more complex) trapping or two not so complex ones.
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UmbraLux
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doge wrote:
I thought what I did was to design a new trapping with multiple benefits and penalties all at once (no choosing between them) but I suspect the core of my confusion lies in the very fact whether this is considered adding one (more complex) trapping or two not so complex ones.
I don't know exactly what you'd suggested (and it probably doesn't matter at this point) but I'll throw out a couple ideas I might* accept and one I probably wouldn't and explain why...

*I say might because much is dependent on specific setting and campaign.

Provisionally accepted: Half of Damage Field's damage is cold and half is necromantic - round fractions up. Why: It fits in worlds with necromancy and is mildly less powerful than the base power due to potential immunities.

Provisionally accepted: Damage Field does an additional 2 cold and 2 necromantic damage but only affects those the field's emenator can see (usually front and sides only). Why: It does more damage than base but has a significant limitation in the sight requirement.

Probably unacceptable: Damage Field does an additional 1d6 cold and 1d6 necromantic damage but does only half damage on those immune to either cold or necromantic and no damage to those immune to both. Why: It's too powerful - too many dice, too many chances for exploding damage, and the downside is fairly minor. Besides, throwing a handful of dice will almost certainly slow the game down.

For comparison, look at the Fire Shield (Armor) trapping in the SWEX sidebar. It has two effects (+2d6 damage and double protection vs fire) but also has two downsides (no affect against cold and only effective at all in one direction). The directional downside is major. It reduces the shield to approximately 25% of the potential attack directions covered by Armor alone.

Do note - the above is my opinion as GM and not necessarily anyone else's. Smile In any case, I hope you have a blast playing Savage Worlds! I have. Smile
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77IM
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: A question on trappings.. Reply with quote

Doge wrote:
Now, what I did was take the spell Damage Field and add both the Cold and Necromantic trapping to the spell


There may be some semantic confusion here. To me, a power only has one trapping. So what you did was take the power Damage Field, with a somewhat elaborate trapping, with rules using the cold and necromantic trappings as an example.

Personally, if I were the GM, I would probably forbid that power due to complexity of implementation. To me the point of trappings is more to do with the flavor/feel of the power than the rules, so I wouldn't allow any trapping modifications more than the bare minimum necessary to represent the concept.

-- 77IM
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Doge
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

77IM: Well, I asked and Clint replied.. What I did was creating a new trapping, based on two already existing ones.. However, one cannot do that an expect them to be naturally balanced, as the combine whole may be more powerful than the individual pieces.. Hence it requires serious tweaking..

UmbraLux:

hehe.. Thank you for your ideas.. However, what I did was far more simple: I directly added the described positives and negatives of the two trappings.. (I am not sure whether it is permitted to actually post the spell up, as that would include statistics only available to those, who bought the books.. ) I would like to do so though, since that would allow you all to break it apart far more easily.. And hopefully help me rebuild it into something workable.. Wink

(I can see the lack of balance now that I've looked at it through more educated eyes, so to speak.)

Wink
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islan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I don't have the Fantasy Companion yet, so I don't really know what Damage Field does, but I can only guess that it's an AoE damage-dealer, so I guess I could use the power Blast as an example. I am probably off the mark on this, but you can still use this post as just a general example of trappings

Now, if a player wanted to have Blast do both Cold and Necrotic damage, I would take it that the spell will always do the same amount of damage as it normally does, unless it is used on a creature that is either Weak or Strong against either of them (+2 Damage or -2 Damage, usually). Now if this interpretation is not what is being discussed, please disregard what I say next.

So this spell would deal either +2 damage against creatures weak to either damage type, -2 damage against creatures strong to either damage type, +4 damage to creatures weak to both types, -4 damage to creatures strong to both types, or no modifier to creatures strong against one but weak against another.

Now, in one way this could be considered "balanced out" since there are both bonuses and penalties. But normally a creature would probably be weak against only one of those with no consideration of the other; this basically expands the range of creatures that are affected and thus would be a little more powerful than a standard blast spell. I would therefore probably limit this spell in some way, such as making it cost 1 extra PP, or having limited range or incapable of having its AoE increased.

With all of these things considered, and if it fits within the setting we are playing in, I would then allow this spell.
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FoxBlue
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that you could just use one of the cold trappings and include necromantic elements in the description for much of the same effect. Necromancy is one of the trappings with the broadest variety of possible effects so it wouldn't be unheard of for it to do necromantic damage but have the effects of a cold trapping. The way I see it is that necromantic cold makes a lot more sense than necromancy and cold for a single spell. Alternatively you could have it do cold damage but make undead loath to attack you as per the necromantic trapping.

In any case you pretty much have to call it "Chill of the Grave".

Drew!
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Doge
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll come back to all of you, as soon as I know how to do so, without violating any copyright issues.. Then I'd be exceptionally pleased to explain the concept of my idea and let ya'll tear it apart in yer frenzy.. Wink

In other words, as soon as I've been told what I can and cannot do, I'll post up my ideas and hopefully you'll work with me to balance it..
And if you have any suggestions, feel free to pile them on as well. Wink
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Doge
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right... I had a little chat with Clint and he gave me some pointers on how to do this, so no one got in trouble.. (primarily me..) Mr. Green (He did however thank me for asking first, which I will hurry to relay to y'all.. People seemingly act a lot nicer, if you ask their permission before you post their 'secrets' to the world.. Wink Not that anyone needed to be told..) Embarassed

So, getting to work..

I'll start by quoting Clint directly, posting what he worked out for me to say.. (And once again Clint, thank you) Wink

Quote:
I'm not going to repeat the exact power, so this may only be useful to those people who have the Fantasy Companion and know what Damage Field does.

The PP cost is doubled from 4 (3/1 rnd) to 8 (3/2 round) and undead are considered to have a level of Arcane Resistance vs. the power.

In addition to the damage dealt, all living victims of this power must make Guts and Vigor checks (at -2) to avoid Fear and cold-based Fatigue.

While the living make both Guts and Vigor rolls at a -2 penalty, the undead are immune to the fear and cold effects of the spell and suffer only damage.


This describes the modified effects of the spell and this is what I need to balance out, to make it work properly..

Now, to give you an idea of the point of view, I'll give you a short description of my character and how powers work for him..

Aiden is a priest of the Lightfather (one of the two greatest deities in the setting) this does not mean that he casts divine spells.. In fact, he doesn't use spells at all.. (keep this in mind, please.) Consider him simply an ordinary, young village priest from our own world, newly educated, who does his best for his flock..

Bang, he dies and goes to the Realm of the Dead, a very, very unpleasant place, where all dead people end up..
Exactly a century later, he wakes up in a re-vigorated body, his burial-clothes and gear remade as if new and his body looking and feeling as if he was in his prime.. For all sakes and appearances, he has just come back to life, no strings attached. Except that he hasn't..

Aiden is undead, although it doesn't show and within him he holds the power of his own undead soul, dead energies which he uses to fuel those powers his unlife grants him..

All this is a bit unimportant, save to explain the tematic background of the spell.. In-game, it is not considered a spell, but a supernatural ability, fueled by undead soul-energy and this is exactly how the spell should feel.. Not as a spell, but as something else, something very, very creepy..

Thus, the two trappings I added gave me the feel of the chill of the grave, sucking out the life and soul of the victims and this feel is critical and must be maintained..

However, the alterations mentioned above do not feel like they're properly averaged out.. (While I may meet quite a few undead, I will most likely face off against mortals primarily, but this is ONLY a guess.)

Please, please, please help me out here guys and gals, I really need the help and I would really appreciate it.. Smile

IMPORTANT:

Please refrain from describing the actual spell in question or the trappings used, in any greater detail than I have.. If you are helping me, you either know already (as do I) or you are speaking generally, in which case it isn't needed.. This is the critical point of what Clint told me and I would rather abort the project completely, rather than go against his or any other admin's wishes/recomendations/commands (take your pick).. Savage Worlds is an awesome system and I will not be party to any abuse of it or the forums dedicated to it..
This rant is of course meant in a very friendly manner and the big men with clubs hiding in the thread are not here to get you, should you cross the line anyway.. #1eek13

Thank you all Mr. Green
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Doge
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm.. Either everybody in the thread suddenly went off somewhere else because they're busy or I did something to insult a lot of people all at once..

Could be my somewhat patronizing post.. Hmm.. Perhaps not the greatest idea that, but meant more to ensure my treading on new land didn't get me in trouble, rather than remind anyone of things they already knew.. A kind of insurance policy gone wrong.. At least so it seems..

If so, I am sorry.

- Doge
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FoxBlue
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey. Haven't abandoned ya, and not at all offended (no clue why I would be). You posted this just as midterms hit. I'll get around to going over your post and replying soon.

Drew!
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Doge
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile Thanks a lot..

I seem to be a tad over-analytic sometimes and I was afraid my post could be seen as a rookie trying to tell the veterans about the rules, which could be seen as offensive... I am glad this isn't the case.. Smile
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On looking at the FC again, one thing I noticed is that the trappings as listed don't match up exactly. It might just be a shorthand description, but there should not be a flat -2 penalty to the Vigor or Guts roll. The Vigor roll should only have a -2 penalty if a raise is rolled, and the Guts roll didn't actually have any penalty listed at all.

The commonality of undead is a pretty big question and one really only the GM can answer. However, this really seems to be a Necromantic trapping with a cold-like effect. I'd probably judge it to be unaffected by both Immunity and Weakness to Cold, but I might extend the Arcane Resistance Effect to cold-based creatures and those with Immunity to Cold, so the effect is somewhat reduced against them.

Or maybe the effect doesn't work well against some other form of potential foe and they get the Arcane Resistance. It could be Necromancers who use the same energy, or maybe animals get the Arcane Resistance because it's harder to drain energies that are disimilar to his own.

On the other hand, maybe undead will be fine, but it's really only something the GM can answer based on the specific setting and what he plans on running.
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Doge
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no -2 on the Guts roll, this was my own addition to make it a bit simpler. I evened it out by letting Undead be immune to the Fatigue effect.. A case of simply swapping the penalty from one with the bonus from the other (trapping) so to speak.. Sorry if this was unclear..

Again, I am very, very new at this and I'm trying to learn along the way.. Wink

The main trapping is the necromantic one, as the theme of the spell is based on that.. However, I wanted to simulate the chill of the grave, which is the reason why I added the cold trapping to the mix, to get the cold-based fatigue.. I never really considered it as a seperate type of energy.. Again, newbie.. I did double the cost though..

However, it may overall be easier to eliminate the -2 penalty alltogether and leave it at a simple Guts and Vigor check, one to avoid Fear, the other Fatigue.. The thematic effect is the draining of 'soul' and 'body'...

This way, while I pay double and undead are immune to both effects, apart from damage (the immunity is partly to balance it out, partly to keep with the theme), all living things make Guts and Vigor Rolls.

I'm not entirely sure about other beings getting Arcane Resistance, although it can be argued that any being, which isn't exactly 'alive' (constructs, golems and so forth) would either be immune or get Arcane Resistance.. This may balance it somewhat.. I'm thinking that either the non-living beings are unaffected because the power drains life or they are only partly affected, since the energies which animate them are affected to some degree. On that same note, the non-living would probably be immune to the Fear and Fatigue effects as well..

So basically, all undead and non-living beings would get Arcane Resistance and immunity to Fear and Fatigue.. Again this is a matter of how many of such creatures are encountered, but at the very least it widens the field considerably, giving the GM more chances to mess with the power.. Mix this up with the doubled cost and the lack of any penalties to the checks and it may be alright.. Although I am still not sure..
Note that this effectively removes all bonuses from a Raise, save the one from the spell itself as described in the FC..

What do you think? And by all means, keep it coming. For every single post, I recognice a new opportunity for balancing and being creative and at the very least this will help me greatly in my SWEP experience from here on. Smile
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UmbraLux
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doge wrote:
However, it may overall be easier to eliminate the -2 penalty alltogether and leave it at a simple Guts and Vigor check, one to avoid Fear, the other Fatigue.. The thematic effect is the draining of 'soul' and 'body'...
I don't have the Fantasy Companion (just the Toolkit) so I've stayed out of the specific trappings discussions. However, I caution against anything which creates a requirement for multiple additional rolls. Not because of balance but because of the potential for slowing combat down. One of the things I like most about Savage Worlds is the speed of combat.

That said, are you certain you want to use or duplicate the suggested / example trappings? Create something new! Perhaps a single Spirit check which results in Fear on odd failures and Fatigue on even failures. Perhaps both if you got a raise and they fail. Just an idea...there are many possibilities.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doge wrote:
So basically, all undead and non-living beings would get Arcane Resistance and immunity to Fear and Fatigue.. Again this is a matter of how many of such creatures are encountered, but at the very least it widens the field considerably, giving the GM more chances to mess with the power.. Mix this up with the doubled cost and the lack of any penalties to the checks and it may be alright.. Although I am still not sure..
Note that this effectively removes all bonuses from a Raise, save the one from the spell itself as described in the FC.


Well, there was only one other benefit from a raise from those particular trappings and that was the -2 to the Vigor roll, so it's not like multiple effects were lost.

Thing is, there is only one person who can really tweak this out for balance any farther (based on the information available), and that's the GM. No one here can say this is balanced because no one other than the GM has an idea of the prevalence in the setting of undead, constructs, or whatever opponent is resistant to the effect.

What is clear is that the setting is not "standard fantasy" by virtue of one very important stated point that this power does not come from AB: Magic or Miracles, but AB: Superpowers. Just the allowance of that Arcane Background alone in the game instantly defines the setting and game as non-standard, so there is no way to tell what else is non-standard about the setting. Maybe undead are drawn to characters like this one, so they will be more prevalent, or maybe they avoid them. There's no way to tell as that's up to the GM running the game.

Heck, even if it is just access to that AB that is different, that alone may have repercussions on the trappings and possible use of the power. The description of the character infers that his ability is a rare and possibly even unique one. If so, that would have to be taken into account too since it would impact the game as well.

There are just too many "ifs" at this point I think. Confused
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Doge
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm.. you may be right.. But one point is important.. I do use the AB(magic), it's only the thematic effect that is different.. The mechanical effect is the same.. Did I not say this somewhere? Embarassed

Still, I do see what you mean and I'll leave it for now. I've gotten a fairly good idea of the details of the spell and some very good pointers on how to balance it.. Even though I'm still a rookie.. Wink

Maybe this is indeed a matter of 'Time will tell' Cool

Wink

Thank you all for the help.. Smile
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Clint
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doge wrote:
Hmm.. you may be right.. But one point is important.. I do use the AB(magic), it's only the thematic effect that is different.. The mechanical effect is the same.. Did I not say this somewhere? Embarassed


Sorry, my bad. I mistakenly took this...

Doge wrote:
In-game, it is not considered a spell, but a supernatural ability, fueled by undead soul-energy and this is exactly how the spell should feel.. Not as a spell, but as something else, something very, very creepy..


...to mean it wasn't treated like a spell mechanically but like a super ability, when now I see you clearly meant that only "in-game" was it considered that way.
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