Username:    Password:      Remember me       
Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
Discussion Forum for PEG/GWG
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Player-Facing Rolls in SW

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW General Chat & Game Stories
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Clint
Site Admin


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 18044

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:10 pm    Post subject: Player-Facing Rolls in SW Reply with quote

Just because I took someone's blog post as a personal challenge. Wink

Player-Facing means the players make the combat rolls in the game where the GM just sets the target and goes (mostly) dice-free.

In SW, this would mean that players attack as normal, but they no longer have a Parry or Toughness value. Instead, NPCs have an Attack (Melee/Range) and Damage ratings against which PCs roll Defense and Resistance rolls. Modifiers to Parry and Toughness are now applied as bonuses or penalties to the appropriate rolls.

When an NPC attacks a player, the player rolls their Defense against the appropriate Attack Value; Fighting vs. Melee and Agility vs. Range.

Critical Failure - Roll Vigor at -4 vs. Damage
Failure - Roll Vigor vs. Damage
Success - Roll Vigor at +4 vs. Damage
Raise - Avoid the attack entirely

When rolling Resistance (Vigor vs. Damage) the effects are...

Raise - No effect
Success - Shaken
Failure - 1 wound
Every 4 points less = +1 wound
Critical Failure = Incapacitation

Figuring Attack and Damage values...

Attack (Melee) = 2 + Fighting/2 (+2 for Wild Cards)
Attack (Range) = 2 + Shooting or Throwing/2 (+2 for Wild Cards)

Damage = Total dice of attack/2
[Ex. 3d6 = (3x6)/2 and thus Damage: 9]

Modifiers: Flat modifiers apply to Attack and Damage normally. For instance, a group of 3 Extras with an Attack (Melee) of 6 with Gang Up would have +2 for an Attack of 8. Or a Double Tap would increase Attack (Ranged) and Damage for that attack by +1.

Other Changes: A benny can still be spent to automatically remove a Shaken, but there are no more Soak rolls since the Vigor roll vs. Damage already fills that effect and a benny could be spent to reroll there.

The Full Defense manuever is also unneeded since that effect is also standard.

In the standard, Heroic game, Resistance rolls are unique because wound penalties do not apply to them (decreasing the death spiral effect), but in a Gritty game, the GM might have them applied (the GM may also rule that Hard to Kill allows a character to ignore wound penalties for Resistance rolls).

GM bennies now work as Bizarro-Bennies; the GM can spend them to remove a Shaken as normal or to force a player to reroll a Trait roll and take the worse result. A player may spend a benny of their own to counter a Bizarro-Benny spent by the GM to force them to reroll (Common Bond allows spending bennies for others as listed).


So to give an example of an NPC from the core rulebook, an Ogre might have the combat stats...

Ogre
Attack (Melee): 6
Damage (Club): 13
Parry: 6
Toughness: 11 (1)

For opposed rolls, the GM uses the same formula for Attack with the appropriate Trait to determine the TN. For instance, if an Extra has an Agility of d6 and a character wants to interrupt them, they have to roll against a 5. If it was a Wild Card, it would be an 7.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com


Last edited by Clint on Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ron blessing
Heroic


Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 1523
Location: Thornton, CO

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were played by George C. Scott, I might say, "Clint, you magnificent bastard!"

I may need to test this out soon.
_________________
Ron
Gamer: The Blogging - Musings of a Father, Husband, and Gamer.
The Game's the Thing: Analog Gaming In a Digital World
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
skylion
Veteran


Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 753
Location: Covington, Ky

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm setting about to bring Rocketship Empires 1936 to SW, and this looks like a great way to do some seriously crazy pulp style combat. Gonna see if the players will groove on it.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
J Gregory
Seasoned


Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Posts: 107
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I reading this wrong, or does this take away the possibility for enemies to get one-hit-kills via acing damage rolls? Does it take the possible benefits of acing away from the attacker and give them to the defender (acing defense rolls)?

Interesting idea - I just want to be clear.
_________________
Voodoo Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Enno
Veteran


Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 606
Location: Ulm, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice idea. But looks to me as it slows the process of combat dramatically down, because all rolls are resistance rolls now, and none is against flat values as before.

Nice idea to think about, but purely academical.
_________________
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Clint
Site Admin


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 18044

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Gregory wrote:
Am I reading this wrong, or does this take away the possibility for enemies to get one-hit-kills via acing damage rolls? Does it take the possible benefits of acing away from the attacker and give them to the defender (acing defense rolls)?


Note that a critical failure on a Resistance roll results in automatic Incapacitation which emulates the possibility for a damage roll to ace and result in a "one-hit-kill."

Enno wrote:
Nice idea. But looks to me as it slows the process of combat dramatically down, because all rolls are resistance rolls now, and none is against flat values as before.


Not sure I understand; all of the rolls are against flat values with this variant.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Enno
Veteran


Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 606
Location: Ulm, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which has to be rolled out before. It has to be rolled each round, and each attack? Not against Parry or TN 4 as in the core rules.

But maybe i didn't understood your mechanics correctly...
_________________
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Clint
Site Admin


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 18044

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enno wrote:
Which has to be rolled out before. It has to be rolled each round, and each attack? Not against Parry or TN 4 as in the core rules.

But maybe i didn't understood your mechanics correctly...


Sounds like you are reading it as Opposed Rolls when the discussion is about Player Facing rolls, where the players make all (or most) of the die rolls and the GM just sets a static TN for them to roll against (which would be in the opponent's stats as listed for the Ogre example).

What this means is that players still attack using the same current rules, but when they are attacked in return, their opponents do not roll at all; instead the players roll Defense vs. the Attack Value TN and then possibly Resistance vs. their Damage Value TN.

At no point does the GM roll a single die in this exchange. In fact, the number of die rolls would remain the same where the Defense roll of the player replaces the attack roll of the NPC and the Resistance roll of the player replaces the damage roll for any hits.

Hope that clears it up.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
The Angle
Veteran


Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 670
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As something to play, I don't think I'd enjoy it as either a player or a GM. As an exercise in game design, however, I say "well done."

Steve
_________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always pick the one I haven't tried before." -- Mae West
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
skylion
Veteran


Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 753
Location: Covington, Ky

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait....I don't have to roll dice?

When did rolling dice become something anyone would ever want to get rid off?

Not rolling dice?

My head is currently exploding. [/i]
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Clint
Site Admin


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 18044

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Angle wrote:
As something to play, I don't think I'd enjoy it as either a player or a GM. As an exercise in game design, however, I say "well done."


Thanks, Steve!

Yeah, I didn't post the original reference, but the "challenge" I spoke of came from Ran's blog in this post if anyone wants to check it out...

http://ronblessing.blogspot.com/2010/01/player-facing-rolls.html
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Chezzo
Seasoned


Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 282
Location: Philly, PA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But, what happens when a player attacks an NPC? Is it just like it is now?

If it isn't, the GM has to roll the same Defense and Resistance rolls.

If it is, the GM still has to roll to soak and roll on the incapacitation table - which granted, only happen if an NPC gets wounded.

Unless there is something I am totally missing.

Quote:
GM bennies now work as Bizarro-Bennies; the GM can spend them to remove a Shaken as normal or to force a player to reroll a Trait roll and take the worse result. A player may spend a benny of their own to counter a Bizarro-Benny spent by the GM to force them to reroll.


I thought GM bennies could always work like that. Are you saying that is pretty much the only role that GM bennies have, 'cause the GM ain't rollin the bones?

I heard a tale round the table of a GM wanting to Puppet someone, and between the two of them they spent eleven bennies.
_________________
Chezzo Eyewitness News - Our news is the realest and really happened and is not a parody whatsoever. Promise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Clint
Site Admin


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 18044

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chezzo wrote:
But, what happens when a player attacks an NPC? Is it just like it is now?


Yep, as stated, player attacks work as normal.

Chezzo wrote:
If it is, the GM still has to roll to soak and roll on the incapacitation table - which granted, only happen if an NPC gets wounded.

Unless there is something I am totally missing.


Well, as I said above...

Clint wrote:
...the GM just sets the target and goes (mostly) dice-free.


But Soaking and Incapacitation only really come up with Wild Cards (though an Extra could Soak), so it's not a lot. And even then Soaking is needed anymore (and as noted isn't used) since the GM can spend a Benny to force a player to reroll a Trait roll, so instead of "Soaking," he can force a player to reroll a successful attack for a worse result possibly avoiding the damage (or a raise on damage) entirely.

Heck, it's easy enough to add an NPC ability or rule like No Mercy in reverse where the GM can instead spend a Benny to make a player reroll Damage rolls, which would directly supplant Soaks.

Then it's only a matter of rolling for Incapacitation when that occurs to a Wild Card.

Quote:
GM bennies now work as Bizarro-Bennies; the GM can spend them to remove a Shaken as normal or to force a player to reroll a Trait roll and take the worse result. A player may spend a benny of their own to counter a Bizarro-Benny spent by the GM to force them to reroll.


I thought GM bennies could always work like that. Are you saying that is pretty much the only role that GM bennies have, 'cause the GM ain't rollin the bones?[/quote]

No, there is nothing in the core rules where the GM can spend a benny to force a player to reroll a Trait roll for the worse effect nor where the player can spend a benny to directly counter the GM spending one.

Chezzo wrote:
I heard a tale round the table of a GM wanting to Puppet someone, and between the two of them they spent eleven bennies.


Ah, Puppet works by an Opposed roll, so it sounds like the GM spent his bennies for a high result by rerolling his roll, and then the player spent bennies in an attempt to overcome it by rerolling his own opposed roll.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
curiousParticle
Novice


Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much Clint.

I think this is a great idea. I was trying to put something together myself, but did not have enough experience with the system. It is strange that people are being so resistant to it. My goal as a GM is off load as much work as possible to the players, which this helps. Also this makes it much more fun for the players, who rather than having to sit there and wait while the GM rolls their fate, get the rolls placed back in there lap.

Many systems, like GURPS have defense rolls already, but I always felt that there was no need to have both the GM and players roll as GURPS does. Aren't the dice just there to simulate luck? Though both the attacker and the defender are testing their luck in an attack, it always felt to me that you could just simulate that as one roll, as savage worlds does it. And as you have shown, you can give all of those rolls to the character, thus increase the players enjoyment and their sense of agency.

I think this is a brilliant idea and I wonder if anyone has actually used it and what their thoughts are on it. I for one will be using it and will try to post my thoughts after using it for several sessions.

Thanks Clint.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Snate56
Legendary


Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 4277
Location: Monroe, Washington

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're resistant to it precisly because we are familiar with the system. Laughing

Great idea, but I like rolling dice. Wink



SteveN
_________________
"We've got a blind date with destiny... and it looks like she's ordered the lobster." <The Shoveller>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Legendary


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 2369
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like this idea - I probably wouldn't use it for Wild Cards, but it'd be interesting to try it for Extras. The number of rolls may be the same, but (as GM) I find one of the things that bogs down large combats is that I'm frequently switching between dice as I roll for different groups of opponents.

With this approach I could write out some cards for each NPC with their TNs on it, and just hand them out as players get attacked - allowing each player to simultaneously resolve (and describe) attacks made against them for the round, using their own fighting dice.

Shooting is normally against a TN of 4, so I assume players would always roll a d6 to avoid being hit by gunfire?

As an aside, this would also be superb for people running GMless games, as players wouldn't need to "roll for the bad guys" - everyone would just be rolling for themselves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Snate56
Legendary


Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 4277
Location: Monroe, Washington

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I saw the GMless possibility too. But another thing I was thinking is the players are "stuck" with the roll, for better or worse. Now I know most of us (GMs) roll openly anyway, but it does preclude any fudging the GM might want to insert. (Perhaps to save the party's lives? Surprised )


SteveN
_________________
"We've got a blind date with destiny... and it looks like she's ordered the lobster." <The Shoveller>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
curiousParticle
Novice


Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that most of my goal is exactly the idea that I like rolling dice. But as a GM, I get to roll many more times than your average player. Often I am rolling as often as each player combined, (for combat), then plus all of the other rolls behind the screen. But my players like rolling dice too. I like this idea because it balances the dice rolling a bit.

But, as pointed out,

Snate56 wrote:
But another thing I was thinking is the players are "stuck" with the roll, for better or worse. Now I know most of us (GMs) roll openly anyway, but it does preclude any fudging the GM might want to insert. (Perhaps to save the party's lives? Surprised )


This is a problem that I had not thought of, and is frankly, going to strangely make combat a little more exciting even for me. I guess when I was rolling, I always knew that you could fudge a roll if you needed to. But now, well, it is going to be a bit more interesting.

Thanks for the point Steve and thanks again Clint.

-Alan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drue
Seasoned


Joined: 10 Nov 2011
Posts: 104
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

necro-thread arise!

Has anyone tried this system at the table?

My players love the big fights with bunches of mooks, extras, and henchfolk, but things can bog down when I'm rolling for dozens of mobs. Considering trying this system on this Saturday's game.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chatterbox
Seasoned


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 251
Location: Herndon, VA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a neat idea! Not sure if we'll go with it for my game, but I'd like to try it out sometime.

Actually, I might steal the "figuring attack and damage values" formula to set static TNs for players to roll against instead of using opposed rolls. Might work well for some Notice vs Stealth or maybe to calculate a Persuasion difficulty.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW General Chat & Game Stories All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum