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Garrote Attack? Gimme some rules or input.

 
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Dave.B
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Garrote Attack? Gimme some rules or input. Reply with quote

okay, my brain is dead today.
are there official garrote rules anywhere?
if not what do you do?

here's what i'm thinking.
Garrote Dmg: Str+d4.
attacker must be behind attacker. if the defender doesn't know the attacker is there give him the Drop (ouch.)

attacker rolls to hit, rolls damage accordingly.
following this, i think we could use the grappling rules of opposed rolls with Str or Agility, with +4 bonus to the attacker riding the victim's back.

if successful on the opposed roll, the attacker does not have to roll for further attacks, automatically doing Str+d4 per round until the attacker succeeds on a opposed roll and manages to throw/twist/wriggle out of the garrote, manages to kill the attacker with attacks at -4, or is dead.

while the auto damage can be powerful, i think it is balanced out by the fact he does roll again and therefore cannot get another extra damage dice for a raise. garroting is a slow painful process with wildcards and can get involved and messy. as it should be.

as far as cutting the garrote to get free, i would only allow this if the initial attack did not get a raise on the actual roll.
If the Drop was achieved, we are not counting the free damage raise of +4 to hit due to The Drop.
if the attacker did not roll a natural raise, the defender managed, by luck or instinct, to get an arm up, snag the garrote on a coat collar, etc.
the defender can then attempt to cut the garrote with a knife or smaller sharp object with an attack against the attacker at a -4 penalty.

For Garrote Stats
Wire Garrote - Toughness: 8

Locking Garrote - with a successful attack, the attacker locks the garrote in place and steps away. damage is automatic and rolled each round.
unlike a normal garrote, the defender must cut this one off, there is no Str or Agility opposed roll to get out.

he can attempt to cut it off even if the attacker got a raise on the attack roll, with a knife or smaller sharp object, a -4 penalty.

instead of the attackers parry score, the target number to cut free is the number rolled on the attack roll by the garroter. you are rolling against how skillfully the garroter locked the damn thing in, not the garroter himself.

that's what i'm going with for now.
any direction, criticisms, point out and saying "hey look a X book for the real rules", or your own methods would be appreciated.

Dave
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UmbraLux
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strength plus d4 sounds good for damage. However, I think garroting someone should require a called shot to a vital area, probably as a grappling attack with its opposed roles to maintain and cause damage. A locking garrote should be automatic, as you describe.

Edit - on cutting it free, you might allow it even with a raise...but it causes the same cutting damage to the victim... Twisted Evil
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quixol
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Garrote Attack? Gimme some rules or input. Reply with quote

}here's what i'm thinking.
Garrote Dmg: Str+d4.
** Sounds exactly right **
Attacker must be behind attacker. if the defender doesn't know the attacker is there give him the Drop (ouch.)

** I assume that a notice vs oppossed stealth is called for, and of course Danger sense or other edges would greatly help here. In the case that a notice is made, the attacker would not get the drop would only get a successful attack if they have the higher initiative.**

Attacker rolls to hit, rolls damage accordingly.
*** 2 things...
1. I would only make a normal attack roll, if the defender is completely unaware.
2. I think this is a an easy called shot at a -2 TN since they have to be quick and accurate. Getting the drop however should still make this relatively easy.***

Assuming they get following this, i think we could use the grappling rules of opposed rolls with Str or Agility, with +4 bonus to the attacker riding the victim's back.

** Yes, this seems like a good compromise once someone has a garrote around someone's neck. However other options should still be possible assuming someone has access to a weapon. If the defender manages to have a knife they instead could stab the attacker in the leg. If they manage to get a shaken they would be able to get out of continued garrotting. Their TN would of course be modified to stab an attacker behind them, while being garrotted -4 TN. ***

"if successful on the opposed roll, the attacker does not have to roll for further attacks, automatically doing Str+d4 per round until the attacker succeeds on a opposed roll and manages to throw/twist/wriggle out of the garrote, manages to kill the attacker with attacks at -4, or is dead."

*** Sounds deadly is for certain, but any alternative I could think of would slow game down even more...so it seems to fit. The option to have to roll an attack when the garrote is in place, seems too gamey to think about.

I think everything else looks great...although there are sure to be many things no one will think of until faced with it by a PC...but I'll let ya know after I try this out when I have a gang of red scarfed thuggees all attack my players at a banquet for Aga Kahn. So thanks and great stuff.***
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Gavinwulf
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very long time ago I posted my rules for "Garroting Commando Style" and they ended up in an old issue of sharkbytes.

It was meant to emulate how commandos are actually trained to garrote someone- loop the wire around the victim's neck, turn back to back with the victim, and yank as if pulling the victim over your shoulder. The technique is meant to break their neck w/o screaming rather than strangling and killing by suffocation- which would be alot harder.

The Houserule was something like this:

If the PC can get sneak close enough to get the drop, then on a succussful attack w/ raise, an extra is down and out-simple.

In the movies though, major characters always get a finger under the wire or something, so for Wild Cards it's Str+D4 damage in a grapple, same as you suggested. You could rule that the the victim only has a number of rounds equal to half their Vigor to shake off the attacker before they pass out from suffocation. Sort of like the Drowing/Suffocation rules.
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Takeda
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The strangulation/suffocation should get worse and worse every round. Perhaps a +1 to damage per round the 'hold' is maintained ... If the victim has a rigid neck protection/collar/armour this would be eliminated. Like wearing a leather & padding lined steel gorget ... could make the Garrote almost useless.

Perhaps Garrote have AP-4 (meaning any armour is calculated as 4pts higher than it is). A Wire garrote might have AP-2 but does Str+d4+1 on the first round and +2 on grapple checks to keep on the target as it would be harder to disengage a wire garrote from the target as it could cuts hands, sink into the wound making it harder to get out, etc.

Just a thought.
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Dave.B
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's alot of good suggestions people.
i'm waiting to implement these things on a PC.

quixol:
thuggees, nice. that's a whole lot of strangling rolls. the sheer volume of garroting in a game like that should work out kinks in any garroting system. Mr. Green

Dave
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77IM
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's how I'd do it.

If you successfully grapple someone and are using a garrote, and you got The Drop, then the +4 damage applies to all your grappling damage until they escape, and they get a -4 penalty to escape. (Otherwise, by the RAW, it seems that getting The Drop and using it to grapple would cause you to not get any bonus damage since the damage happens on the next round as a separate action.)

-- 77IM
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Lord Lance
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunno... Too many rules here. Not so FFF.

I would choose Garrote as a normal weapon, with bonus and penalties.
A Garrote should:
- obviously give the unarmed penalty to his wielder (so -2 parry)
- obviously have 2hand requirement
- be used only with grapple rules
- add a simple d4 to standard grapple damage (or just a +1 to start / mantain grapple??)

Suffocation could simply be a "trapping" of the normal damage, so if you cause enough damage, you have suffocated your enemy (or maybe just cause unconscious status, if you choose non-lethal damage). Wanna break the neck with the fancy back-to-back move? then cause lethal damage, and do your wounds...
Of course, without call in extra rules, if you have the Drop (+4 Damage, +4 Attack), and aim to the neck (+4 Damage, -6 attack, Vital area, usually ignoring armors, 'cause in that point you have no/low protection), I think you could say "Bye" to your enemy (and "Bye bye" to Extras), even with standard Str damage and the simple d4 of the Garrote (and maybe another d6 for a good placed Raise...)

Please, note that if you love Garrotes, you could take some nice grapple edge from the free Modern Martial Arts, to build your stealty wire armed character...

EDIT: about that I was saying in my example with Drop, neck etc., and reading the 77IM post before mine, I recalled this one:
http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=207105&highlight=grapple+head++damage#207105
I found it after 1/2 hour of search work... Neutral Neutral
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Takeda
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uhm, I don't know that that reply (I.E. the link) was in keeping with our thread ... any luck on finding the post that originated this discussion ... to clarify context.

Having a -4 to maintain the hold on the neck with the garrote seems pretty ridiculous ... doesn't really make much sense in my opinion. If you don't suffer that as long as you 'maintain' the hold and thus eliminate the penalty 'to hit' it makes more sense. If you already have your dagger stuck in some monsters kidney and you want to wiggle it around you shouldn't have to roll to hit again if the dagger is still in the wound. There might be an opposed roll to keep the weapon in the wound if it's struggling but not a penalty to hit it at all.

I think Clint's point is that it's hard to hold onto (in a simple grapple) a smaller body part ... so grappling a person's hand and holding onto 'just' the hand might be tougher than keeping the person generally grappled.

With the garrote you're locked on with the mechanical advantage of the rope around the target's neck so until it's cut or thrown off the targeting modifier is irrelevent.

Also stacking the drop bonus damage and hit location suggests it's an instant kill ... I don't see that being the case. I would think the target would be pretty screwed and would like succumb to the suffocation ... I think it would be worse than just being held underwater though as it also constricts the windpipe and to a lesser degree the carotid and jugular.

Having a piano-wire garrote would be worse as it would be harder to get out and it would cut into the target adding to the standard garrote damage.
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Sam: "Yeah, what do you wanna do, poke her with a stick?"
[Dean nods]
Sam: "Dude, you're not gonna poke her with a stick?"
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Takeda
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of the UFC ... if they have a choke hold on some guy it's not too hard to maintain it unless they make an opposed Grapple Check. If they make it they're out but I don't see them having a -4 targeting modifier to maintain it or nobody'd be able to maintain it long enough to get anything done?

If you throw off the chocker and they try to get a lock on your neck again the penalties should apply. If they still have you in the Full-Naked-Choke you shouldn't have a 4pt advantage on throwing them off with an opposed grapple-check.

Clint! Do you want to chime in?
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FoxBlue
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wait where did it say anything about the garrote user having a penalty? It's the garrotee who gets -4 to break free as per grappling.
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Takeda
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the link Lance provided.

That's why I think it's out of context thus my post.
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Sam: "Dude, you're not gonna poke her with a stick?"
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Blogotron
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude...a Garrotte by Drop should cause direct Fatigue damage. Str+d4 countered by Toughness.
Being strangled with this weapon is pretty quick (even quicker with that nasty "Commando" style) and the longer its applied the greater the returns. This perfectly reflects getting the drop and Garrotting.
Using a Garrote in real combat is foolhardy at best but in a cinematic game i can see it being used as it was listed in the first post.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Takeda wrote:
Clint! Do you want to chime in?


What? Huh? Sorry, wasn't paying attention. Um...

Garrotte - Using a garrote requires making a Grappling attack at -4 to hit the throat (making it most useful when combined with the Drop to negate the penalty). If successful, the grappler gains a +4 to Strength (not Agility) for opposed rolls against his target for the duration of the grapple. Targets of a garrotte must make a Vigor roll at -4 to be able to speak in any way; yelling requires a raise on the roll.

The bonus makes it harder to escape a garrotte once placed, and it makes it more likely the grappler will get a success or raise on his roll to do damage if he chooses.

If it is a wire garrotte, then make the damage Str+d4.
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Gavinwulf
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blogotron wrote:

Being strangled with this weapon is pretty quick (even quicker with that nasty "Commando" style) and the longer its applied the greater the returns. This perfectly reflects getting the drop and Garrotting.
Using a Garrote in real combat is foolhardy at best but in a cinematic game i can see it being used as it was listed in the first post.


"Commando Style" sounds silly but I don't know if there is an actual name for the technique besides 'garroting'. My father is the one who told me about it- he was an Airborne Ranger who learned it while training with Navy Seals. I was told the intent of garroting like that was to snap the neck more than suffocate the victim.
This is coming from a guy whose parenting included sitting me down and making me watch Full Metal Jacket at 8-years-old.
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Dylan S
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gavinwulf wrote:
Blogotron wrote:

Being strangled with this weapon is pretty quick (even quicker with that nasty "Commando" style) and the longer its applied the greater the returns. This perfectly reflects getting the drop and Garrotting.
Using a Garrote in real combat is foolhardy at best but in a cinematic game i can see it being used as it was listed in the first post.


"Commando Style" sounds silly but I don't know if there is an actual name for the technique besides 'garroting'. My father is the one who told me about it- he was an Airborne Ranger who learned it while training with Navy Seals. I was told the intent of garroting like that was to snap the neck more than suffocate the victim.
This is coming from a guy whose parenting included sitting me down and making me watch Full Metal Jacket at 8-years-old.


Ah-ha! Further evidence that RPers are a messed-up and dangerous lot. I'm reporting this post to the Concerned Parents Against Fun immediately!
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Lord Lance
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And, please, remember always that S.W. is a set of "gamist"-themed rules, so you don't have to re-build reality every time you need a new element in your game: you have to obtain a nice system to describe what that damage mean...

Finally, if you create a weapon obviously broken, with a lot of damage and bonuses to keep doing that damage, then you'll obtain a whole character party stealty walking around with garrotes... Neutral Neutral
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Takeda
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Takeda wrote:
Clint! Do you want to chime in?


What? Huh? Sorry, wasn't paying attention. Um...

Garrotte - Using a garrote requires making a Grappling attack at -4 to hit the throat (making it most useful when combined with the Drop to negate the penalty). If successful, the grappler gains a +4 to Strength (not Agility) for opposed rolls against his target for the duration of the grapple. Targets of a garrotte must make a Vigor roll at -4 to be able to speak in any way; yelling requires a raise on the roll.

The bonus makes it harder to escape a garrotte once placed, and it makes it more likely the grappler will get a success or raise on his roll to do damage if he chooses.

If it is a wire garrotte, then make the damage Str+d4.


Works for me ... FFF and sweet!
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Dean: "Ya' know she could be faking."
Sam: "Yeah, what do you wanna do, poke her with a stick?"
[Dean nods]
Sam: "Dude, you're not gonna poke her with a stick?"
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Poor Wandering One
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Lance wrote:

then you'll obtain a whole character party stealty walking around with garrotes... Neutral Neutral



"It's four on one, hit from behind, and vive le garotte!"
~Victorian prostitute's anthem circa 1885

~will


Last edited by Poor Wandering One on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dave.B
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Takeda wrote:
Clint! Do you want to chime in?


What? Huh? Sorry, wasn't paying attention. Um...

Garrotte - Using a garrote requires making a Grappling attack at -4 to hit the throat (making it most useful when combined with the Drop to negate the penalty). If successful, the grappler gains a +4 to Strength (not Agility) for opposed rolls against his target for the duration of the grapple. Targets of a garrotte must make a Vigor roll at -4 to be able to speak in any way; yelling requires a raise on the roll.

The bonus makes it harder to escape a garrotte once placed, and it makes it more likely the grappler will get a success or raise on his roll to do damage if he chooses.

If it is a wire garrotte, then make the damage Str+d4.


thanks for that info clint, i wondered what the official take would be.
that's a nice to base to build from.

Dave
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