Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[Blogotron]

Alright, to begin my campaign I asked my players to label themselves as some sort of criminal that has been recently jailed for their lawless behaviour. Their characters needn't be murderers or rapists; pick pockets or con-men would do. They also did not need to be habitual criminals nor even guilty of the crimes that landed them in jail ( mistaken identity, trumped up charges, etc). They have, after meeting one another in jail, been released.

I take the blame, entirely for what I am about the describe.

Well my players have fully embraced their criminal pasts and look forward to engaging in further and more heinous criminal acts in the future. Basically they are murderous fiends. The last straw was last week when they murdered their employer in cold blood and stole his family's livelihood for an insult after their ineptitude lead to the death of some of their employer's employees/family members. Though they are on a Frontier I think that they must still be brought to justice. If this were one PC and the others were Sane then it would not be such a problem but as it is no storyline can be completed due to the PC's belligerence in all situations.

I have been pretty restless trying to figure out how to rescue my party from absolute villainy and i think that I may have set upon a solution: Have them kill themselves.

Normally this ploy would not work with them as their characters are incredibly selfish and think nothing of slaughtering women or letting children starve so long as it saves their hides. They won't even talk to allies, let alone enemies, to get information that might lead them to their personal goals. They just plan vengeful murders and if info is needed, torture.

Enter the Bounty Hunters. I will pre-make some bounty hunters, probably Seasoned and have them roleplay these characters as "witch hunters" seeking to end the reign of terror of a gang of highwaymen who seem to be tainted by Evil. Whenever the players encounter the fiends that they are stalking I have the Players pull out their criminal PCs and battle ensues. I will try to set it up as an ambush.

Is this unfair to my players?

[shadd4d]

If your campaign is supposed to be heroic, then...it might be a cool way to re-establish the feel for the campaign, although if they end up playing the bounty hunters, then you have shoe-horned them into a certain role.

Have you asked any of your players if they are interested in redemption or are they all in love with the idea of absolute villainy to rival a few bandit kings?

There are all kinds of things to reiterate that actions have consequences; the employer, who was probably rich, might have relatives who are equally rich and powerful and now vengeful.

Besides the comment about how jail doesn't really rehabilitate people for society, what about if they get hired to do a jail break for some wrongfully imprisoned innocent? Or what if someone they know gets hauled off to the brig...or they do?

Maybe you could try another approach and figure out how to sell "good" to your players. For instance, in my DL:R game, our tale-telling reporter is arguably the most bloodthirsty guy in the party, perfectly okay with impaling defenseless people to send a joker-esque message of intimidation. That said, he is able to do heroic things because of a dime novel deal in which he chronicles the heroic exploits of the group; he then has a stake in doing heroic things because it improves his bottom line and notoriety. Maybe you could try something like this for your group, convincing them that they have a stake in "good" (NASDAQ symbol: GOOD).

Don
_________________
Don

"But there is a difference between fear and horror. An important difference.
Fear is when you worry about what might be.
Horror is when you are certain." Dannyboy01

[quixol]

It definitely does not seem unfair for YOUR purposes, however you know your players best. The question is more would it seem unfair to them?

I agree with the other poster and *IF* there is any chance of redemption, than I say that is a road worth taking. The most sucessful way to have this occur is to have an NPC that you can have the characters feel some affinity for. Perhaps a roguish child who is being abused by a particular nemesis of the players. Once they have a relationship, use the child to motivate the players into an adventure that while selfish to them, promotes them in the eyes of those ignorant of their pasts as heroes. If you play it right they MAY just eat it up...or they may burn their bridges.

Having had this occur to me in previous games, I have one hard and fast rule...Playing a criminal is not the same as playing a homicidal psychopath. So if they go for indiscrminate killing, then all bets are off, unless that is really the road you wish your game to go.

What setting are you playing? DLR, or SK...from reading your post it could be either or perhaps something of your own making.

Will be interested to hear what you finally land on and how it works.

[Blogotron]

Grim fantasy loosely based on some elements of SK and WHFR. Oh and the defining war of the campaign world is about 2 months away from taking place, though skirmishes have already began. Oh, and its based on the Blackheart novel series from Warhammer Fantasy

Redemption? Uhm....they killed their previous employer in cold blood after he harangued them for not doing their job. Not once has anyone done anything slightly heroic (they even offered the slaves they rescued to some slavers in exchange for sheep they were tasked to find under pain of death. One player has not engaged in outright evil acts and has often argued with the other players and has been granted freedom from further obligation to the Law of the realm. That happened last session so we will see if her liberty influences other players. I will dangle salvation in front of them but so far none of my bait has been bitten. Perhaps i just need a heavier hand.

Currently their plan is to hire a Bandit gang whose leader they just slaughtered ( she was un-armed and un-armoured and wage a short war to free 2 other crimanals waiting for their death sentence to be carried out for wanton murder.

Oh, and they are supposed to be heroic. Put it this way, the campaign is supposed to have them as rebels vs an all powerful Empire once the campaign-defining war begins.

[shadd4d]

Okay...now we go to the Han Solo theory of figuring out that you are a good guy. Part of convincing him that he wa a good guy was that he was a great guy but needed to find out what his "higher purpose was".

I think your one "good" player is probably the weakest link in terms of bringing the players to heroism. I think she/he should be given the opportunity to betray the evil guys with whom she is with.

Talk to your players and find out what it takes to bring them to heroism; not to be too railroady, they need to see how much better being a hero is. Maybe your idea has a lot of merit...especially isf possibly couched as a dream sequence or some life-shattering revelation which shows them the error of their ways.

I don't know how to bring your game back to what you want...except somehow giving them a stake in heroism beyond material rewards.

Don
_________________
Don

"But there is a difference between fear and horror. An important difference.
Fear is when you worry about what might be.
Horror is when you are certain." Dannyboy01

[Karnaze]

Well, there are two options I can see.

1. Set the party up, have them be captured by one side of the upcoming war or the other. Once they are captured let them know that their past misdeeds are well known and that they will be held accountable for those deeds by means of execution. UNLESS, they perform this almost guaranteed suicide mission. Basically, "The Dirty Dozen". They will be under the command of some heoric or legendary NPC that they would have little chance of defeating in combat.

2. The PC's have become wanted desperados. Every law man in the area is out to catch or kill them. Have them start encountering groups of heavily armed posses, if the players don't get the message, ratchet it up and keep throwing increasingly large groups or more wildcards at them. They should get the message that they at least are going to have to keep moving and not allow the locals to eventually gather enough of a posse to take them out.

EDIT: I don't think your idea is fair to your players unless during the first game session that you have them play the posse, you make it very clear to the players that they are tracking their own characters. Have the posse be strong enough that the players realize their characters likely won't survive a battle with the posse. Then let them go back to their original characters. Knowing what is chasing them might make them think twice.

[poody]

It depends on your group of course. As a player, I would love this set up. I have a Deadlands character who is very similar to what you describe - his entire gang is horrible! I think it would be a blast to chase my own character with a different one. The fun part is seeing which character is victorious.

I can see how it might be off-putting to some players, though.

Rich
_________________
Check out the Custom Adventure Card Creator

Or view ones that others have made here

[philth]

My Deadlands game is getting like this. I got another friend to play, which is a good thing and he loves it, but he solves all his problems at the end of his sawed off double barrel.

Coffin Rock; Slight Spoiler:

After the "Heroes" killed a whole church congregation, the town Marshall and his deputies,responding to the sound of the gun fire, arrive. I figure seeing the bodies and the heroes blasting away, the law man's first demands would be, "Drop your weapons." I figured I would get some good roleplay, at least get the players to put there guns away, have to explain the situation, an escape, a jailbreak perhaps, etc....

Regardless they refuse to put down there weapons. The Marshall, counts to 3, and then the shooting begins. Soon all the lawmen in town are dead, and the more violent player, in my 2 man group, Smokey Joe, declares himself sheriff of coffin rock.

Next day, after a bit of a ghost hunt, the players are witnessed by surviving towns folk as the bodies outside the church are being cleaned up....after all the players just left all the corpses there; the townsfolk were not pleased. So the townsfolk came up, asking why. I figured the players might explain better there side and win them over, after all, not everyone was a fan of the late Marshall and his deputies. But no, in response Smokey Joe cocks his double barrel. After seeing what they did to the law men everyone in town backs off from there new sheriff.

So yea, sorry about the diatribe, but I find myself in a similar predicament. I wanted heroes, and my line of thinking was to draw out there relationship with the town, build it up, but now the whole town (whom in the context of the adventure they are supposed to save) is scared to death of them. Oh I even had Cheval confront them at the funerary service for those whom they had slain, and I don't think I even played him right. I was afraid that if he came off too menacing they would've gunned him down on the spot.

I am now starting to rethink my campaign directed towards these cretins, whom they enjoy playing, as the solution. But lets see what happens. The next scene I intend to run will involve zombie miners attacking the town. The "Heroes" will rightfully assume they need to kill all the zombies, inadvertently saving the town and possibly gaining the peoples respect!? Yes?! MAYBE!!!

ps Coffin Rock rules. I really enjoy the open feel and freedom of the adventure. Yes I'm kissing your ass but it's an ass that needs a kiss

[Blogotron]

Alright. From the ideas given in response i have a few good options thank you all.

Option One: Maintain the Bounty Hunter Idea but make them Veterans thus it would be inconceivable that the PCs could defeat their alter egos. The Caveat being that the Players will be told that the Bounty Hunters are not after just anyone but actually gunning for their cherished first SWEX characters.

Option 2: Dangle Heroism in their face. My idea for the set up would be that we "Pulp" up the time between games to put the players in Dire straits without the PCs havinga chance to avoid it. Basically have them recovering from a harrowing fight and lost in the wilderness, a freak snowstorm perhaps. Sorta crap Howard always had Conan recovering from.
The PCscome across a town where their infamy does not precede them. The townspeople are nice enough and in fact are glad to see strangers who are willing to spend a little money in the town ( they don't kill everyone, sometimes they pay for drinks) and who hate the local ruler as much as the PCs do. Instant connection, I hope. Maybe even have the PCs come across the town headman's son as he is being accosted by a rabid wolf or something my weakened PCs could kill but a child could not.

A few days later, after nursing their wounds the town is encountered by the front edge of the invading army and a short battle ensues when most of the skirmishers flee. Sets the players up to do a bit of A-Team work.


An aside: What is truly strange is that if the PCs had not slain their rightfully angry boss they would have encountered the king at the keep on the borderlands, saved his life and have their crimes forgiven and their terms of service to state ended. Maybe i should tell them this so they won't go about killing everyone so often.

Philth: As for your PC and his shot-gun. If he is a drinker or a heavy sleeper ( and I would probably make him do some rolling to avoid drinking after what he did) have a sneaky-git youngin' replace his shells with duds... Then "Mad Max Beyond the Thunderdome" him.

Killing people isn't easy work and in more realistic games such as Deadlands I see no reason why he might not have PTSD and self medicate with opium or alcohol.

[Maine]

If it's Deadlands, put the fear of the Reckoning in them. Scare them to the point that they get a gist of what really may be happening, and make them realize that if they continue in their evil ways, they are nothing but pawns.

Throw a nasty evil at them that they can't defeat, make it hurt them, taunt them, nearly kill some of them, then leave, laughing... "but I will let you live, for your deeds serve me far better than your deaths... those will come soone nough!"

Take control away from the characters from time to time to do even worse deeds (a type of posession). Drop hints that perhaps they need to atone for their deeds to avoid becoming nothing but pawns of some great evil, and make it clear that this evil poses a much more interesting and tougher challenge than simply being outlaws.

[Sadric]

I dont know your setting, but at the moment I would say, they like the "we dont follow any rules!!" feeling. So, let them have some evil demonlike thing that like that they follow him. "Do what you do know, sow terror and fear. But do it in the area I tell you." And make the demon powerfull enough/incorporeal/talking to them in drams. So they couldnt attack him. Try to make it so that the first thing they do couldnt go wrong.
"kill the major of this town!!" and the major of the town is out to hunt them, for example.
They will hate it, because they like the "we are free!" feeling, and dont like to follof the orders of this demon. Now have them encounter others that follow this demon, and the invading army. I dont know if they really will be heroic, but now they will like to fight the demon and the invading army.

But maybe more important, talk with your player that you didnt like the way the campaign had developed. Tell them they are suposed to be heroes. Tell them even about the king of the wilderlands.
Tell them that you are unhappy with the way of the campaign, and that you like heroic heroes. Ask them why they are so antiheroic. Be pleasant, but tell them that its a problem for you.

[GreenTongue]

Evil has a price, make them pay it.
Provide each player a chance to get what they want for their character, at the expense of their fellows. The downfall of Evil is that each are for themselves. Eventually it will be "the last man standing" against the world.

NOBODY helps them willingly once they know who they are. While they may not attack them, and likely will not, they get NO friendly help. Their infamy spreads eventually.

Finding and fighting them detracts from the defense against the real enemy. Let them see that they are helping to destroy their "own side".

So, in the end, the last of them is alone as the true enemy takes over.

They can then start new characters as the resistance, with a real stake in winning.
=

[The Angle]

In my experience, this sort of thing isn't a role-playing problem, it's a player problem. They were given the keys to the liquor store and now they're drinking themselves into a stupor. It's why the assassin class was removed from 2nd ed. AD&D -- players saw it as a license to murder whomever they wanted, whenever they wanted. Worse, your players think they're doing this with your blessing. After all, you freely handed them the keys. Yanking the rug out from under them or somehow locking them into a course of action that they wouldn't have chosen would be unfair.

Have you talked to them about it? A direct conversation is usually the best solution to these things. You just say, "look, guys, this isn't working out as I anticipated, and I'm not enjoying it. Can we dial back on the bloodlust and mayhem so the campaign can move forward?" Reasonable players will say yes.

If they refuse, then here's what I'd do. It's very similar to what Greentongue suggested. You state that the "defining war" is about 2 months away. Whatever you originally intended, that war now threatens to overwhelm the world and shut down existence as your freebooters have come to know it. Unless they join cause with the good guys, Chaos wins and they lose everything. No matter how bad these PCs are, I'll bet that they're utter amateurs from the POV of creatures spawned from chaos. If they join the fight against chaos, they need to start acting decently (or at least turning their sociopathy against deserving targets). If they don't, this campaign reaches a logical if premature conclusion.

Steve
_________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always pick the one I haven't tried before." -- Mae West

[Jordan Peacock]

I would recommend that if this campaign isn't going the way you want - find a way to bring it to a conclusion. That's the only decent way I've been able to deal with these things. As someone else suggested, you could have a big zombie attack on the town, and then the PCs would be free to kill zombies with wild abandon. You could cap it off by having a Big Bad behind it all, big enough for the PCs to use up whatever goodies they've accumulated during their looting sprees. And then - The End.

THEN, you can start up a NEW campaign. If you've got lots of adventure ideas that you wanted to use - but didn't - in the current campaign, then fine - you can use them in the "new" campaign if you think they'll do any better. Just, for the new game, I'd opt to put the PCs in situations where you start in the middle of the action, in the middle of the graveyard or the abandoned mine or the creepy old house where anything that moves is a monster. Save the interactions with NPCs for the pre-game "prologue" that sets up the adventure; this minimizes the chances that bored players will suddenly decide to shoot the NPC plot-hook guy in the middle of the speech, or take offense to him.

I've been in (and run) campaigns that dealt with these issues in many different ways. In one campaign, I had a very talented GM who nonetheless was obliged to entertain the players above all else - and no matter how deep of a plot hole they might get themselves into, they were destined to prevail. Unfortunately, this meant the "lowest common denominator" in the group won out: The bozo who gets impatient and decides to start shooting whenever plot exposition and character development gets boring, well, he gets his way. He gets "veto power" over the plot, essentially, because there's no consequence to his actions.

(By the "veto power" reference, I mean that, say, if the players want to talk out a conflict rather than having a fight, the hot-head in the group has "veto power" because all he has to do is pull out a gun and shoot, and it's settled: No more talking; there's going to be a fight. If the other PCs don't shoot him on the spot for it - if they won't stick their necks out to protect NPCs - then even if they aren't directly "responsible," they're enablers for even letting him tag along, and that's just the way it's going to be.)

On the other hand, I've tried to make games show the "consequence" of a character's actions, but it generally turns out badly if the player disagrees: If the player thinks his character's actions were fully justified, he may take the "karmic punishment" as a bit of vindictiveness on the part of the GM, and it'll cause hard feelings. Several times I've seen that a PC group won't really police itself unless it's one of the PCs turning against other PCs. Before that point, they'll rationalize and justify away, for the greater good - but once it becomes a threat to characters with players behind them, then it really matters.

So, if I've got a player group where one or more PCs can be counted upon to (eventually) go berserk and do something unheroic and plot-damaging, then I know I shouldn't have an adventure where the PCs are in such a situation in the first place. Unfortunately, this just means that there are some plots I can dream up, and which I'm sure would entertain one or more players in my group - but if the other players get bored, that "veto power" is going to come into play and break things.

In an ideal world, I'd hand-pick all my players based on who I think would best fit with the plot I have in mind. Trouble is, my social circle is a bit limited, and I don't have that much of a luxury. I've stopped inviting a few people, and they don't automatically get replaced.

So, the best I can do is to try to make a compromise: I try to make games that I think the play group will fit into, minimize the "deep NPC interaction" (that only interests a portion of the group), make sure there's something to shoot (without guilt) ... and police the game in terms of making sure that people reasonably play their Heroic and Loyal Hindrances.

Some play groups really just belong in the traditional D&D-ish dungeon: It's a no-man's land, where any NPCs encountered are either monsters, or are sufficiently powerful to survive in such an unpleasant place without the help of the PCs. (Or, at the very least, aren't critical plot hooks - so I won't be at a loss if the PCs take offense to or utterly ignore them.)

If the PCs are heroic, they get benefits. If the PCs are selfish, then that's its own reward, I suppose. Any interactions with civilization for such a group are best kept simple and brief - some sale of treasure and purchase of healing potions and better gear "off-camera." I suppose that the same general model can be used for many settings.
_________________

[Tuesday]

[islan]

I just think you should let the players know beforehand that they are going after their other characters. Who knows, they might even like the idea. Otherwise I would personally feel rather cheated, like I was forced to ruin myself.

[Tuesday]

Blogotron:

My advice to you is similar. Give them a chance to be heroic. Present them with a "carrot" situation

CARROT: let them save the lives of innocents from certain death as the orphanage catches fire, present them with a chance to foil a robbery, that kind of thing. Make sure there's lots of witnesses.

If they do it, great. Reward them, with adulation and maybe a prize.

If they point, laugh, interfere with rescue efforts, or aggravate the situation, jump straight to STICK

If they do nothing, have someone else intervene and take the reward, and make it a fairly good reward. MUCH better than the reward the PCs would have gotten for doing the same thing. And make the person who does it somebody clearly innocent and well-liked, who is now very popular.

Now, he just got a great reward. And your PCs can either let him have it, or take it from him. If they take it from him, jump to STICK. If they let him have it, repeat the CARROT with a new situation.

STICK: They've either deliberately interefered with rescue efforts, laughed at the terrible death of children, or attacked the town hero and taken away his rightful reward. The town has been pushed too far, and snaps, and murders them in their sleeps as per #1 from my previous post. If you have any "not so bad" characters, have the townsfolk arrest them and throw them in jail instead of just killing them, and hey, look, isn't this where you came in?

[Tuesday]

Jordan:

[Clint]

I can only offer one piece of advice.

Talk to the players.

This really seems like an issue of miscommunication between the GM and the players. And I just don't believe that any in-game "fix" is going to be a fair way to handle an out-of-game situation.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com

[TheLoremaster]