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Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
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| On a scale of 1 (the worst) to 5 (the best), how would you rate your enthusiasm if you heard about another SW Setting for a genre already covered? |
| 5 - Great! Another toy for me! Bring it on! |
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4% |
[ 6 ] |
| 5 - Great! Another toy for me! Bring it on! |
|
4% |
[ 6 ] |
| 5 - Great! Another toy for me! Bring it on! |
|
4% |
[ 6 ] |
| 5 - Great! Another toy for me! Bring it on! |
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4% |
[ 6 ] |
| 4 - I'm always interested in new settings |
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8% |
[ 12 ] |
| 4 - I'm always interested in new settings |
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8% |
[ 12 ] |
| 4 - I'm always interested in new settings |
|
8% |
[ 12 ] |
| 4 - I'm always interested in new settings |
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8% |
[ 12 ] |
| 3 - I'd have to see it before making a decision |
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11% |
[ 17 ] |
| 3 - I'd have to see it before making a decision |
|
11% |
[ 17 ] |
| 3 - I'd have to see it before making a decision |
|
11% |
[ 17 ] |
| 3 - I'd have to see it before making a decision |
|
11% |
[ 17 ] |
| 2 - It'd have to have one hell of a twist to gain my interest |
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1% |
[ 2 ] |
| 2 - It'd have to have one hell of a twist to gain my interest |
|
1% |
[ 2 ] |
| 2 - It'd have to have one hell of a twist to gain my interest |
|
1% |
[ 2 ] |
| 2 - It'd have to have one hell of a twist to gain my interest |
|
1% |
[ 2 ] |
| 1 - No thanks, one setting is plenty |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 1 - No thanks, one setting is plenty |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 1 - No thanks, one setting is plenty |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 1 - No thanks, one setting is plenty |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 148 |
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| Author |
Message |
skylion
Veteran
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 753
Location: Covington, Ky
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 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: |
The problem is the "going traditional" hook only works once, no matter how different the settings are.
So, I could see someone doing a traditional 4-color supers setting because NE has a completely different hook other than being "traditional." But I wouldn't want to see two settings like that. |
Sounds a bit like the old saw that "everything old is new again". You can have a great conceptual hook(NE, Evernight, 50F), and then the new hook is the "traditional" setting. I see that most of us aren't new to the hobby, in fact it seems alot of use are the "old dogs". Thing is, in gaming, old dogs love new tricks; thou it doesn't mean we learn them well, sometimes. Other thing about old dogs is "we won't get fooled again".
This is my own personal belief, but I think that the Savage Worlds line would benefit from some patience in testing out new concepts and products...it already has. Thou the company has several licensees, the products produced by those are of great quality. This is in contrast to many of the "rushed out" products that surrounded the d20 OGL. It was harsh. I would go back the the FLGS and see a new back wall just brimming with new product that smelled of rehash. This leads to the inevitable "rehash discount bin". It's historical too. Clint mentions all the old D&D franchises. The only one that fulfils the "hook quotient" IMO was the Dark Sun stuff. And even that hook couldn't drag me back to the overinflated system that AD&D2ed became.
I guess what I am trying to say is this. The ruleset for SW is a selling point in itself, granted. The Settings created for it provide a compleling raison d'etre for that ruleset. And the commitment to providing high quality product is not only icing on the cake, but a great respect for it's fans. I think if you fulfill those points, half your work is done in creating "the hook". |
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screenmonkey
Veteran
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 749
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Brent, I'd have to see Scairy Tales first. Seriously, if i like your work, then i'm more inclined to buy it regardless of duplication. If it's a setting that interests me, i'd buy all related products that i think are good and use them all together in some fashion. |
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Truckee Games
Seasoned
Joined: 14 May 2003
Posts: 457
Location: Truckee, CA - Sierra Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| screenmonkey wrote: | | Brent, I'd have to see Scairy Tales first. Seriously, if i like your work, then i'm more inclined to buy it regardless of duplication. If it's a setting that interests me, i'd buy all related products that i think are good and use them all together in some fashion. |
Ah, here's an interesting view on the matter too: Regardless of setting, how important is name recognition?
Thanks!
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Ben Rogers
Seasoned
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| SavageBrent wrote: | | Ah, here's an interesting view on the matter too: Regardless of setting, how important is name recognition? |
I look more at company than author. Typically this is because the editing staff touches everything.
Editors can make or break any writer.
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Wiggy
Legendary
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: TAG me. I dare you!
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| SavageBrent wrote: | Ah, here's an interesting view on the matter too: Regardless of setting, how important is name recognition?
Thanks! |
Speaking purely as a fan, not very important to me at all. I don't care who wrote Product X. If I like the product, it'll be because of the material. If the same author writes a book that just doesn't interest me, I won't buy it just because of his name.
For instance, I like Tour of Darkness because I find the Vietnam conflict interesting. If Teller wrote "Girlie Dolls Vacation in Malibu," I wouldn't be interested, despite Teller doing a great job with TOD.
Speaking purely as an author, while it's warming to know some fans like my work (and I thank those that do), I like to think the material does the selling and not my name. I'd hope that if I wrote a product under the name Bendy Mousekiller, the product would sell just as well.
Wiggy
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Wiggy
Creative Director Triple Ace Games
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razorwise
Legendary
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 2954
Location: Hither and Yon
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| SavageBrent wrote: | | screenmonkey wrote: | | Brent, I'd have to see Scairy Tales first. Seriously, if i like your work, then i'm more inclined to buy it regardless of duplication. If it's a setting that interests me, i'd buy all related products that i think are good and use them all together in some fashion. |
Ah, here's an interesting view on the matter too: Regardless of setting, how important is name recognition?
Thanks! |
Heck. We all know name recognition is important. Not to go off tangent, but isn't Monte Cook is an excellent example of an author who can just place his name on a product and it'll sell no matter what?
It's a matter of branding, ultimately, whether it's the author or the company. Once they get a good rep, most folks will follow along if it's something even a little bit interesting to them or to see what they'll do with it. Case in point. Anne Rice's departure from the realm of vampirism to religion in her writing. I'm sure she'll initially get some crossover fans out of sheer curiousity, if nothing else.
But what do I know? 
Regards,
Sean
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Wiggy
Legendary
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: TAG me. I dare you!
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| razorwise wrote: | | Heck. We all know name recognition is important. Not to go off tangent, but isn't Monte Cook is an excellent example of an author who can just place his name on a product and it'll sell no matter what? |
Name's aren't a sign of quality though. That isn't a comment on Monte (can't say I've ever read anything he sole authored), more on fans in general who buy books based purely on an author's name.
| Quote: | | But what do I know? |
The words of a true wise man.
Wiggy
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Wiggy
Creative Director Triple Ace Games
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Bill
Legendary
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 3155
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Interesting discussion! For my part, it is the hook that draws and keeps me or loses me. A general setting that doesn't have a hook won't sell me. For example: for Pulp in general, I don't need a setting book, the SW book and any number of pulp mags will do the trick. Martian invasion and it's aftereffects (Earth won but was changed)? Ok, I haven't seen that in a setting yet, that might be enough of a hook the first time to get me in. A second Martian Invasion and aftereffect, why should I buy it? It should demonstrate a different hook (example: martian's came back and the world is struggling to survive under a slowly expanding martian empire) might swing it.
As far as authors go, they tend to swing my decision to try something that otherwise may sound iffy. If i like the author I will try something he wrote even if I'm not sure if the hook is something I would noramlly like. Likewise if the author has done a poor job in the past, the hook really has to pull me to get me to buy something more of his (and never twice if he spoils even a good hook!)
Sometimes the setting is the hook (Example: Evernight and NE both have alien invasion of the world as the campaign but different settings and trappings.) Does this mean an alien invasion can't be used again? Probably not. Certainly there are other ways to look at such a thing and other outcomes.
Anyway, those are some of my thoughts.
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MadTinkerer
Legendary
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 2657
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | So, I could see someone doing a traditional 4-color supers setting because NE has a completely different hook other than being "traditional." But I wouldn't want to see two settings like that. |
I agree with this statement 100%, but with one caveat:
If we're talking "official universes" then I'd definitely buy both the Marvel and DC licensed books (at least the "main" ones), even if they had exactly the same Edges/powers/variant rules in them. I would also definitely buy an "Indie Supers" book that covers the same -more-or-less-everything-that's-not-DC-or-Marvel range that Indie Heroclix covers. I would also buy a book that "only" covers the Astro City or Tom Strong universes. This is all hypothetical, of course, but I'd put money on a proven setting every time. Just look at how much money Wizards suckered me out of on D&D before SW came along!
Rippers is far more than just Deadlands Europe/Rest-of-the-World, but the two can be used together. If Brent's supers setting is as distiguished from Necessary Evil (and more importantly the purely hypothetical Savage DC / Marvel books mentioned earlier), then it doesn't need to be "proven".
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Erskin
Seasoned
Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | Shaintar and Evernight have completely different hooks. Evernight's hook is to take classic fantasy and twist it... hard.
But Shaintar is doing something I'm seeing among the licensees, where their hook is actually to provide the traditional setting. Shaintar is a classic high fantasy setting and that alone is its hook. |
It's worth mentioning that with Shaintar, we were (and still are) very careful to not JUST be classic fantasy. I mean, Shaintar *IS* classic fantasy, but doing something so traditional with SW means we HAVE to do it above and beyond.
We don't recommend, weren't comfortable with, and don't suggest anybody even think abotu doing JUST generic whatever and hope to be the first kid on the block to do the "whatever" genre.
For Shaintar, we focused on quality, and richness. We are trying to offer not just "Classic Fantasy for SW!" but an integrated world where all the themes from all types of classic fantasy can easily fit and work together in a supportive manner. (Plus the required awesome campaign..  )
Enough shilling/rambling. My point is, Clint is spot on with the hook being the key, not the setting. (Wait, Clint was right? That always seems to happen when he posts, talks, or otherwise makes his thoughts know. Funny that. ) But be wary if "first guy to do genre" is your hook. SW is *easy* to write for.
Making a plain, generic fantasy setting (or plain generic WHATEVER setting) is a lot easier in SW than other systems. So if "plain generic X" is all you bring to the table, you're liable to not be as well received.
(Of course, "plain generic X done right" or "plain generic X with simply awesome plot point campaign" can be all the "extra" you need.)
Sorry for the rambling. Here's hoping something sensible (and useful, even!) came out of that!
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Erskin L. Cherry
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Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16166
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| MadTinkerer wrote: | | Clint wrote: | | So, I could see someone doing a traditional 4-color supers setting because NE has a completely different hook other than being "traditional." But I wouldn't want to see two settings like that. |
I agree with this statement 100%, but with one caveat:
If we're talking "official universes" then I'd definitely buy both the Marvel and DC licensed books (at least the "main" ones), even if they had exactly the same Edges/powers/variant rules in them. I would also definitely buy an "Indie Supers" book that covers the same -more-or-less-everything-that's-not-DC-or-Marvel range that Indie Heroclix covers. I would also buy a book that "only" covers the Astro City or Tom Strong universes. This is all hypothetical, of course, but I'd put money on a proven setting every time. Just look at how much money Wizards suckered me out of on D&D before SW came along! |
As I said in my first post, a licensed setting is on its own a type of hook, so I feel my statement still applies as is.
| MadTinkerer wrote: | | Rippers is far more than just Deadlands Europe/Rest-of-the-World, but the two can be used together. If Brent's supers setting is as distiguished from Necessary Evil (and more importantly the purely hypothetical Savage DC / Marvel books mentioned earlier), then it doesn't need to be "proven". |
But to me, it would still need a hook, and "different" simply isn't a hook in my mind. The hypothetical Marvel/DC books have their license as a hook, whereas two settings that were simply differentiated because of their power level and a few setting tweaks would not.
That's what I'm trying to get across (as best as I can).
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Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Erskin wrote: | | Sorry for the rambling. Here's hoping something sensible (and useful, even!) came out of that! |
I think it did. It's one of the reasons I like to use "traditional" instead of "generic" setting. "Generic" reminds me too much of "no frills," and that's the exact opposite direction that has to be taken with this approach.
It has got to have that high quality you spoke of. But also if the hook is "traditional," then the foundation has to be multi-functionality as you mentioned. When a person reads the setting, they should almost be overwhelmed with the gaming possibilities.
No pressure though, Sean.
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Clint Black
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Sean Patrick Fannon
Heroic
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 1549
Location: Huntsville, AL
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | When a person reads the setting, they should almost be overwhelmed with the gaming possibilities.
No pressure though, Sean. |
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Evil Beagle Games
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Ron Blessing
Heroic
Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 1504
Location: Thornton, CO
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Wiggy wrote: | | SavageBrent wrote: | Ah, here's an interesting view on the matter too: Regardless of setting, how important is name recognition?
Thanks! |
I'd hope that if I wrote a product under the name Bendy Mousekiller, the product would sell just as well.
Wiggy |
Actually, I'm more likely to buy a product by a guy or girl (?) named Bendy Mousekiller... silly names sell, Wiggy.
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MadTinkerer
Legendary
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 2657
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | MadTinkerer wrote: | | Rippers is far more than just Deadlands Europe/Rest-of-the-World, but the two can be used together. If Brent's supers setting is as distiguished from Necessary Evil (and more importantly the purely hypothetical Savage DC / Marvel books mentioned earlier), then it doesn't need to be "proven". |
But to me, it would still need a hook, and "different" simply isn't a hook in my mind. The hypothetical Marvel/DC books have their license as a hook, whereas two settings that were simply differentiated because of their power level and a few setting tweaks would not.
That's what I'm trying to get across (as best as I can). |
Actually, I just meant that it wouldn't need to be "proven" for me to buy it. The way I see it is that SW doesn't have the same range of stuff that, for example, GURPS does. GURPS has Ultratech and Biotech and Low Tech and Ultratech 2 and Steamtech and Steampunk and Cthulhupunk and GURPS Powers. Savage Worlds doesn't have the equivalent of "GURPS Powers" yet. It has The Alternate Universe Star City Campaign Where Aliens Have Taken Over The World, but not the "main" "Star City" book.
So AFAIC even if the new supers campaign is relatively generic (i.e. the Marvel and DC supers would feel right at home as opposed to the NE-verse where they'd try to leave ASAP), there's still room on my shelf for it. Probably not more than one book like it, but so far I don't have any like it in the first place.
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