Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[Savage Jedi]

This subject has been touched on briefly in the Reluctant players thread, and I thought it deserved it's own little place.

How does character death affect you? Does the real chance of it bring excitement to the game? Does it ruin the game when it happens? Have you ever felt "cheated" by being denied a "cool" death, either by an overly benevolent GM or a soft system?

For myself character death is as much a part of roleplaying as any other.

IMO not having a GM who'll nerf the game and letting the dice rule does make the game more exciting. Nobody who skydives believes 100% that their chute will open. That's part of the thrill, but thank god for bennies.

I've actually only had one character death ruin a game, and that was more of a case of the GM blatantly cheating. Going back and forth on rules interpretation, lying about rolls and quickly picking up the dice. Having all the players call him on it at the same time, and then everyone going home right after made up for it though. I wonder what ever became of that guy? Mmmm

Once I felt cheated by being denied a cool death. It was a GURPS WWII game. My guy and two other PC's were in a trench together when a grenade was tossed in. My guy was the only one who noticed, and I did the very heroic act of covering the 'nade. More than enough damage was done to kill my guy two times over, but the GM was feeling “nice” said it just knocked my guy out... what a rip .

Also even though I like the ShadowRun world I don't like the system as I find it soft and difficult to die.

So what’s everybody’s else’s take on PC death?
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I hope you become comfortable with the use of logic without being deceived into concluding that logic will inevitably lead you to the correct conclusion. - Neil Armstrong

[TheLoremaster]

As a player I prefer a bit of lethality; not too much, but enough to make it feel "real". As a GM, however, I prefer to keep PC's alive as long as I can manage it. As Niska put it, "When you die, I can't hurt you anymore, and I want two days at least, minimum."


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"Your GM is metagaming ... and wrong!"

[Iron Guardian]

For my own characters, it generally doesn't bother me that much. In fact, depending upon the character, I have had (and still willing) to sacrifice said character for a worthy cause or if it is part of his belief system to "die a good death." However, unless the game is Paranoia, I really get steamed if the GM/DM/whatever gets his/her "jollies" from killing characters just to feel like they have won something or because that is all they really want to do to feel "superior."

As a GM, I really don't like killing off characters unless the player either wants me to (because they want the character to go out with a bang rather than retire quietly) or they do something really stupid, knowingly. I do admit to fudging rolls sometimes if I feel the player(s) are playing well but their dice are rolling badly. If I do fudge the roll, I generally try to do it in a way to increase the drama by adding some complication that isn't totally insurmountable based upon their current condition...which of course could earn them some additional experience points.
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Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women! - Conan aka Arnold the Govenator

[DerFinsterling]

As a player, I want to have a system that gives me a figthing chance. I don't want to die simply of bad luck - having your mighty Knight in shiny armor getting killed by a lonely crippled goblin with chopsticks might be possible - it sure ain't fun. If I go down in a big fight or at least in some way that's remembered not as a source of laughter only, then it's ok.
I've had a couple of deaths as a player, some ok, some not.

As GM, I don't go easy on the players. You do something stupid, you get hurt. You do it repeatedly, you might die.
What I do though, is give out hints sometimes. If a player does something stupid and I can't see why he does it, I sometimes break character and ask him for a reason. I don't want players to lose their favorite character only because I didn't get the Big Clue across. Then, if he still insists to push that shiny red button - so be it.

Having the possibility of your character getting hurt and dead just heightens the drama I think.
To get back to the example above - I don't mind having said goblin beat the c*ap outta me, as long as I still come out of the fight victorious. So I like a system where I can have a high-level character who still has to watch out for small threats as well.

(Once in Earthdawn, one of the characters (8th or 9th circle) almost died againt a water-snake, a measly 100 legend point creature... That taught them a lesson )
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Markus
The Sundered Skies Serial - full of spoilers!
Savagepedia at wikispaces

[aristodeimos]

With greater risk comes greater reward. If a system makes it harder to die, then it takes much of the bragging rights away when you succeed. Roleplaying isn't about "winning" or "losing"...it's about surviving and prospering. I prefer the lethal systems (as both a player and a GM). The key is to ensure your players know what they are signing up for so they come into the game with realistic expectations.

To caveat something said above...yes, the players must be able to trust the GM isn't cheating or gaining some sort of personal satisfaction from killing a character. The GM's satisfaction comes from telling a good story and being entertained by how many ways the players can solve your puzzles in ways you never anticipated.

[Savage Jedi]

I think this is where SW really shines. It can a deadly system but the bennies help elevate the prospect of random bad luck death.

Nobody has to go out like good ol' King Harold in the Battle of Hastings (shot in the eye by some random arrow). If a PC does die it should be either like Butch and Sundance, or by pushing the BIG RED BUTTON, that says “DO NOT PUSH!”.
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I hope you become comfortable with the use of logic without being deceived into concluding that logic will inevitably lead you to the correct conclusion. - Neil Armstrong

[jblittlefield]

The best a player can hope for is a "good death" ... otherwise, why play at all.

[Sean Patrick Fannon]

I think one of the areas that RPGs really fall down in is the concept of "cinematic death," or the ever-popular "death scene."

That's why I created the concept of "Final Moments," which will be touched on in greater detail in the final Shaintar book.

The gist of it, however, is that when a character is determined to have been killed, at a minimum they get a soliloquey. Depending on the situation, they may also get one of the following:

1) "Final Blow." One last shot/attack/spell cast (all rolls considered Aced one time). This happens immediately, despite where the initiative order is.

2) "Passing the Torch." A "hand-off" of some kind, either of an important item, sudden insight on how to beat the Bad Guy, or magical/spiritual power to a team mate.

3) "Blaze of Glory." If at all possible, through magical means, breaking some item, or something else, the character gives a wink and a nod, dives in, and causes something to happen that is tremendously devastating to the bad guys.

In all cases, all other players have Common Bond with dying PC at that moment, able to spend their bennies at will to see that the final act is successful.

In each and every instance where this has come up (regardless of system), the players have had a tremendous time and there was intense and wonderful emotion surrounding the event.

It may well be the single innovation I am most proud of in my game development career.
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Sean Patrick Fannon
Evil Beagle Games
The FREE Shaintar Player's Guide

Bad Dog. Good Games.

[jblittlefield]

[DerFinsterling]

[Boulder]

[jblittlefield]

[Sean Patrick Fannon]

[SavagedRobby]

Sean, that is a _very_ cool idea. Are your mechanics for that detailed in the Player's Guide?
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Considering the alternative, life is just fine.

[Sean Patrick Fannon]

[jblittlefield]

[DaoLong]

I havent found a system that I cant get a character killed in.

That said, a good death is better than no death.
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The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."
George Carlin

[Crimson Devil]

Every time I have nerfed the dice for a player it backfires. I remember a Deadlands game were a player fell off a tall ladder and died. I nerfed it, and said he wasn't. So this enboldened one of the other players into a higher level of stupidity. I killed the second player and didn't nerf it. After the tantrum, the game pretty much died.

Some players feel it is a GM's job to protect them from themselves. I no longer do. I let the dice fall as they may, and my players know it. Of course they also know I won't deliberately screw them. So, in the end it works out.
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"People using flintlock pistols shouldn't fire warning shots." -- Badmovies.org

[lordthrog]

I roll the dice out for my players to see them, anymore. The players have more advantages than my poor VC and NVA do, anyway, and end up blasting them back to Ho Chi Mihn with any "help" from me. It seems to have made them more aware of the dangers of foolishness. Besides, in war, that random mortar round just might have your name on it.
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David Sumpter

"So, what weapon should I use? I'm very proficient with the Spork, but I also swing a mean sock of Legos." - Bucky Katt

[Savage Jedi]